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Monday, June 18, 2012

Dickens Still Offers Lasting Lessons for Modern Indonesia

We were talking about Dickens, and lo and behold, love it when you have anti-Reagan trolls coming out of the woodworks. Well, I should not have fed the trolls.

Anyhow, the fact that they published this article so close to the previous one was a major shock to me. I did not expect to have actually three articles published this week, including that Tempo article.

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Dickens Still Offers Lasting Lessons for Modern Indonesia

Yohanes Sulaiman & Phillip Turnbull | February 17, 2012



Charles Dickens was born 200 years ago and remains one of the most famous English novelists, if for no other reason than that his books have never been out of print. No doubt this is so because his novels appeal to a wide audience.

He achieved this because his work adheres to a simple formula: The author describes an ordinary situation or ordinary people in an extraordinary way, so as to engage people’s imaginations and lead them to identifying, in their own lives, with that situation or that person.

We read Dickens and we know what he is talking about. His scenes and characters are familiar.

Perhaps the two most famous quotes from all of Dickens come from the same book, “Oliver Twist.”

“Please Sir, I want some more” and “The law is an ass.” Well, we all “want some more” and we all know “the law is an ass.” Both ideas ring true and are easy to identify with. But why would Dickens say them in the first place and why do we nod our heads in agreement?

But first things first: Why is Dickens always describing the weather?

Dickens uses the weather as a symbol of the events that are happening at the time or to mirror the attitudes and morality of the people involved. For example, “Bleak House” begins in a London fog and everything is cold, damp and wet. Why? Because “Bleak House” is about the law, and the law is a fog; something we can’t see through.

The lawyers and the Lord High Chancellor in his High Court are at the heart of the fog; sitting there in Chancery, like the law they represent and profit from; decayed, tangled, mildewy, wet, sickly and, above all, slow. The law’s delay is eternally slow in resolving anything, until eventually there is nothing to resolve and people are left bankrupt.

Most Indonesians “want some more” and live under a cloud of legal fog, because the law is notoriously corrupt and inefficient, as various codes overlap and contradict each other. Indonesia has an unreformed legal system stretching from the gutter to the High Court administered by the Indonesian equivalents of Mr. Tangle in Chancery. And like Chancery then, the Indonesian legal system now depends for its livelihood on injustice. It’s in the law’s interest to create injustice.

As in “Bleak House,” everyone wants something and wishes to benefit from the law. They end up worse off than how they began — bankrupt of money and bankrupt of justice. Because the law is an ass. The fog will never lift. Nothing will change. As Miss Flite says, “I have the honor to attend Court regularly. With my documents. I expect a judgment. Shortly. On the Day of Judgment.” Justice is an eternity away for those who seek it. Hidden in the fog of the law, which is an ass.

Were Dickens alive today in Indonesia, he would recognize much that was familiar in England 200 years ago. The Indonesian economy is booming, like the economy of Britain during the Industrial Revolution when Dickens was writing his novels. Then as now, the Indonesian government is creating a new society for the prosperous few based on corruption, collusion and nepotism, and new slums for the many poor. Too many people are falling between the cracks. A booming economy brings profit for a few and creates misery for many. And politicians and officials caught with their hands in the state cookie jar simply get a slap on the wrist or sent for a brief timeout in luxurious air-conditioned personal prison rooms.

On the other side of the divide, children and the elderly are sent to prison for stealing a pair of flip-flops, a few plates, a bunch of bananas, or a phone card. Mentally ill people are chained to the floor in conditions of filth and degradation, when they could be living happy and productive lives if they had readily available medication. The ignorance, disease and misery of the slums of Victorian England are still commonplace in Indonesia in the 21st century. Also similarly, nearly all these injustices are never resolved, except those that arouse enough popular outrage.

NGOs and activists attack all this because they recognize the long-term potential damage. The situation is for them an indication of bad economics, bad government, bad laws and the wrong people administering these things, just as was happening in Dickens’s day. However, unlike the NGOs and the activists in Indonesia today, Dickens wrote about these things not because he wanted to attack the laws, or the economics or the government, but simply because he was grounded in the basic premise of the civilized man; that this is not the way things should be. We can’t have bad things in society. Dickens could not abide human oppression.

There is widespread oppression in Indonesia today because there is little sense of mutual inter-dependence. Workers are agitating for an increase in the minimum wage and are being resisted by both the government and employers. Women who work in Jakarta’s garment industry say the government has ignored them, and they have no protection from bosses who set unreasonable quotas and refuse to pay overtime. The workers are stirring.

Yet Dickens was no friend of mobs — he feared them. He recognized that the mob can get out of control as here in Indonesia when the mobs take things into their own hands and burn factories or block highways, bringing industry and commerce to a standstill, alarming the government and making foreign investors have second thoughts .

Referring to the upheaval caused by the London workers strikes of 1854, a Dickens-edited publication included the words: “Ignorance [lack of education] of the most deplorable kind is at the root of all this sort of strife and demoralizing misery. Every employer of labor should write up over his mill door that Brain in the Operative’s [worker’s] Head is Money in the Master’s [employer’s] Pocket.” This logic does not resonate with many bosses, many in government or the law in Indonesia. They remain in a fog and can’t see the long-term benefits that education can bring to the country in terms of prosperity for all.

Social, legal and economic reform can be achieved in Indonesia only when that collective sense of mutual inter-dependence is re-established and the creeping self-interest of the elite is abandoned. Neither NGOs nor radicals, nor even the few worthy politicians and legal representatives, will bring about any significant change and reform in the country. “Trust in nothing but in Providence and your own efforts,” John Jarndyce says in “Bleak House.” We could add: because the government is not going to do it for you.

All that continues to oppress in Indonesia cannot be dispelled until individual Indonesians join together to lift the burden of fog and mist off the country, created by indifference, poverty and a lack of education. Otherwise the law will continue to be an ass and the majority of Indonesians will continue to cry: “Please Sir, I want some more.”

This wisdom in his novels, if for no other reason, is reason enough to celebrate this Year of Dickens.

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philjaco

3:35pm Feb 17, 2012

Sulaiman's arguments are full of contradictions. First he says Indonesian officials should be more like Reagan in cracking down on labor unions, then he laments "widespread oppression" in the country and the plight of the impoverished garment worker. Amazing to me how he can acknowledge the deplorable conditions these workers face yet spend so much column length telling them to get in line.

Doesn't he know that Reagan only made things better for the people at the top? It's hard to tell what this guy really wants for Indonesia.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/commentary/yohanes-sulaiman-indonesia-can-learn-from-reagan-about-taming-labor-unions/495414


Yohanes-Sulaiman

5:41pm Feb 17, 2012

@philjaco: Thank you for your comments. First, repeat after me: the world is not black and white, it is all in shades of gray. Second, I am consistent that what I am against here is uncontrolled mob action that threaten the national interests as a whole. It is up to you if you are approving anarchic actions that will plunge the countries into more problems, but that's not helpful in my opinion. Third, try getting rid of your "progressive blinders" and see how Reagan actually reached to the Democrats - hell, many of his programs were approved by the Democrats!


padt

6:42pm Feb 17, 2012

philjaco - what the dickens are you talking about. This article is not primarily about workers and their rights - but about the 'fog' of the law that keeps all people in Indonesian from having what is their right.

As well, it clearly points out that while Charles Dickens was in favour of a just day's wage for a just day's pay - he feared the 'mob' - and sometimes the mob - eben union inspired mobs - take the law into their own hands - and that ultimately doesn't do away with the fog of the law but has the potential for creating something worse - canon smoke.

Y-S is not being contradictory. He is being, multi faceted. The truth is afterall, symphonic.







philjaco

8:24pm Feb 17, 2012

Of course Reagan had programs approved by the Democrats. The Republicans aren't very different from the Democrats.

And of course those workers blocked that toll road. What else were they supposed to do? The guys at Apindo are making huge money right now, yet they still felt the need to go get that wage increase revoked. That's because there is no "national interest." If there were, Apindo wouldn't have done what they did. You talk about "social stability" and "restoring order." But the lives of the impoverished are already in chaos. That's poverty. What's one day without a toll road compared to that?

Thanks for your response.






Yohanes-Sulaiman

8:56pm Feb 17, 2012

philjaco: What one day without toll road? Why don't you ask the truck drivers who were paid at fixed rate, regardless how long they were in road, so the longer they stuck on traffic, the smaller the amount of money they could take home. How about people living there in Cikarang and working in Jakarta? How about children unable to return home, stuck in traffic for hours? How about lost wages, because many factories had to stop production and deducted the wages even for those who didn't go for the strike. How about the black eye to Indonesia's reputation, making investors less likely to invest due to the fear of uncontrolled workers? Plus, how about the global picture, from the difficulties for Indonesian companies to compete? Anyway, feel free to read my other article to understand the other side of the hill: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/red-tape-and-company-what-a-toll-road-blockade-says-about-the-economy/493657







trueblue

6:46am Feb 18, 2012

@philjaco

Sorry, but it's complete nonsense to make the erroneous claim "the Republicans aren't very different from the Democrats". Try that line on a Tea Party evangelical nutter, and your credibility would be splattered on the side walk. As to your nit picking at Sulaiman/Turnbull it is obvious that you have chosen to ignore the power of allegory and symbolism, which was brilliantly woven through this piece by two balanced wordsmiths. Your quest for labour reform is honourable, but mobs and anarchy are not the way forward.


nonredneck

2:00pm Feb 18, 2012

"What else were they supposed to do?" never fail to show lazy mind &hybrid mentality of SBY-FPI.

Either:

Sitting & singing lame ducks: "pasrah" "nasib lah" "little fish" "destiny" "leave it to god" "we can only pray" "nothing can be done" "doomsday" "no hope" "helpless" "hopeless" blablabla basically saying 'I'm not using my brain & no effort'

OR

Crybabies with tendencies to end up resorting to violence: block the street, shouting slogans on loud speakers, damage buildings/machineries/infrastructure, ravage the country, occupy/camp like homeless, chant slogans, throw stones, burn things, pull down gates, mob judgement(esp. brutal when they get their hands on the target), blablabla basically crying "I don't know what else to do. So I cry, just like babies not knowing how to say I'm hungry / I wet myself" wa wa wa.

Aren't we the well informed, multilingual, well traveled, well educated, well fed, well living, well thinking, well off bunch? What else can we do with all these privileges?

padt

2:51pm Feb 18, 2012

Has anyone actually got any comments to make on the main point of the article? IE - that the law in Indonesia is a fog and is adminsitered in fog that people can't see through and as a result the law is an ass and the people condemned to poverty want more than they law gives them, rightly so, and end up with nothing.

Dickens' books contributed to social change in England. His books were very influential and helped changed people's attitudes towards the poor and the law.

Where are such authors in Indonesia today?

Are there any who write and critique society and seek to bring about change?

Why are conditions in Indonesia - courts where kids are brought because they stole a pair of flip flops or were playing two up - or old ladies who steal a few bananas -the same today as they were 200 years ago in Dicken's England. Why did England change but Indonesia hasn't?

Why, if Dickens walked the streets of Jakarta today could he say, "These conditions are the same as London 200 years ago"?


mauriceg

3:33pm Feb 18, 2012

What a great article. I've always admired Dickens and his humanity. As a Brit I've got a great deal to be thankful for, for those who historically sacrificed their time, and their lives for the betterment of their fellow man.

My feeling is that it is no accident that Indonesia is the way it is, not through historical cock-ups, but rather it suits the governing elites to have it that way. Through the murky fogs of inefficiency, corruption, incompetence and ignorance, they also have called upon their long-time allies of religious clerics. These latter, bought and paid for, both by the governments, and sometimes by other Muslim countries are there to enforce the teaching that this life's reward is in the next life. By this means facile, credulous, simple believers endure much.

The government has no interest in improving education as a smart electorate would sooner or later thwart their plans.

Is it possible that a present-day Dickens is writing about Indonesia? Is his/her work banned?


nonredneck

4:09pm Feb 18, 2012

I think to repair the system, alot more can be learned from US than UK (ofcourse brits will argue differently). Political cartels undoing can be learned the fall of the once powerful tammany hall. Undoing of racist radical thugs (also chanting gods name) kkk infiltration into all branches of the state & federal system & into the education system. Undoing of the prohibition era multinational corp of the mafia strong grips on practically all facets of the society from businesses, newspaper, entertainment, police force, & presidency. All these things that happened in indo is nothing new. Seen it all in the US. Even the follow up on tech advances, inflation cycle, wallstreet greed, consumerism, all follows the leader. Like it or not those who complains about "western contamination" love all the benefits US provides. Alot can be learned from US practical measure on handling multiple huge crisis. No system is perfect, but much can be learned from those who has been through it.

padt

5:49pm Feb 18, 2012

mauriceg - I think you are right - it is not in the government's interest to have an educated population - because if that were the case the voters would make informed political decisions as opposed to what largely happens now - a decison based on hype, publicity, popularity - especially if the candidate is a gormless film star or media personality - and hand outs.

There are other things that one can't mention without raising all hell and giving offence.

Let me just say today I played the final movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony to a university graduate and teacher - he had never heard it before - let alone who was Beethoven.

I then played him Allegri's Miserere - and likewise he had never heard it. He asked, "Why did the West produce this sort of music and culture and we didn't?"

I replied, "The foundations of our respective societies are different. We heard things and were formed by them, that most here are unaware of. Even if sometimes we didn't always live up to the ideals."


enakajah

6:57pm Feb 18, 2012

[Edited for clarity]

Gentlemen, whilst your piece has a nice ring to it and indeed there are a host is similarities between Indonesia today and Dickensian England, I would suggest that it is rather easier to find comparisons than to identify the causes and then the solutions.

Indonesia one must remember has had less than 70 years to develop a legal structure and framework. Prior to that there was 350 years of colonial rule in the most shocking form of divide and rule and near slavery where the legal system was set up to protect the rich and enslave the poor.

Indonesia was cut loose less than 70 years ago and has since had to develop a legal system from the old Dutch law and then the pressures the country has been under from the rest of the world to catch up and develop.

So what may appear Dickensian today has been achieved in a mere blink of the eye compared to the time it too Britain to Achieve the same Dickensian levels. It is therefore hardly surprising that we are where we are.

I would suggest that whilst much of what is said in the article is correct it is hardly surprising given the country's recent history. Imagine taking a country stripped bare for 350 years with little to show for it, then colonized by the Japanese for a few short years, then given back to the dutch and then eventually independent. Since the 60's the country has had to develop and Indonesian system in the mist of feeding the people, educating them defining laws that are appropriate to the many religious groups and on top of that compete for a place on the world stage.

No wonder we have the system we have. The country could not afford in time or money to develop the systems Europe has. But it will come. The results are obvious that currently the rich seal everything and the poor, well they just have to suck it up. Not so uncommon around the world actually.

However given time and the fact that there are people that recognize the situation, the country will get better.


padt

8:28pm Feb 18, 2012

[Edited for clarity]

enakajah, while time is certainly a factor - the question is - how much time is required to deal with the problems of vested corrupt practices in the law and in parliament - and how much time is required to create the political will to do something about it.

Clearly things were getting better but now things are getting worse because they are going backwards.

As well, how long does it take to develop any kind of notion of public service and responsibility amongst those who adminsiter the law and politicians?

Time passes quickly - and in the meantime - those involved and shaping the considtions and destiny of the nation are distracted from the task they should be doing and more intent on accumulating personal wealth and power.

And there is no one to say, "Enoughs enough!"

I have just read Oliver Cromwell's short spoeach to the english parliament - 6 years after they had choped the kings head off for ruining (they said) the country.

Six years later the country was worse off.

So Cromwell shouted at the parliament: "It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt for all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; you are a factious crew, and enemies to all good, government, you are a pack of mercenary wretches...Is there a single virtue remaining among you? Is there one vice you do not possess? You have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartred your conscience for gold? Is there a man amongst you who has the least care for the good of the country? You sordid prostitutes, you have defiled this sacred place (parliament)....and turned it into a den of thieves by your immoral principles and wicked practices. You have grown intolerably odious to the entire nation; you who were deputed by the people to address the country's problems are now the problem.....In the name of God, get out of here!"

Who's got the guts to say it to that scum today?







enakajah

9:23pm Feb 19, 2012

Padt, this is my point. Cromwell said that whilst Britain was for a few short years a republic and eventually returned to monarchy. And how many hundreds of years was the system in place before Cromwell and since?

Generation after generation have gone into developing the European systems and those of the major western governments. Indonesia has had less than a century to develop it's own system and to keep up with the pressure put on it by the rest of the world.

Who would get up as Cromwell Did. Gus Dur did for a start and look what happened to him.

Who will get rid of the rot as it stands today? Nobody I suspect but then again the voting public eventually will waken and when this country has had the luxury of centuries or at least several generations to develop it's systems I am quite sure it will be as solid as many others.

Rapid change breeds opportunity and opportunity breeds corruption.

It will take a great deal of time for the country to develop it's own system. In the mean time the reigning elite will continue to subvert and corrupt. UK was just the same until the early 1900's. The industrial revolution bred corruption in Britain to it's highest levels and this is what Dickens wrote about. But it was there before for very very long time.

Whilst we tend to think in the immediate countries must look towards thinking in generations. It will take many to resolve this country's problems and they must be allowed to do it their own way. It is Indonesia for indonesians and the government they develop must be primarily for themselves and then face the world. In many way they have done an excellent job. It is only in the last 10 or so years that it has got totally out of hand and eventually it will change. However it must come from inside. Guided by internationally accepted principles but uniquely Indonesian. It takes Generations not years.







padt

9:42pm Feb 19, 2012

enakajah - nothing much will change in Indonesia until people change the way they think. And stop being feudal.







enakajah

3:56am Feb 20, 2012

Padt, exactly the point. Changing the way people think takes generations. Especially in a country like this with a documented history, cultural sophistication and traditions that go back to the 5th Century.

To change the way people think took Islam several hundred years. Changing from Hindu/Buddhist/Animist to the largest Islamic nation on earth. To change from 350 years of colonial rule to a democracy that will accommodate both Islam and secular government means changing the way people think over generations.

Looking at Indonesian history, feudalism is deeply rooted in the tradition and culture. This cannot be changed over night if it needs to be at all in the Indonesian context.

This you will find is the root of our friend JPB's arguments. Why does Indonesia have to conform to western ideas why can it not develop it's own.

Right or wrong the fact is change of this nature does not happen quickly. 70 years of independence is a mere tick of the clock compared to other countries.







Yohanes-Sulaiman

7:07am Feb 20, 2012

@all: thank you for your kind comments.

@enakajah: you are right that it will take generations to change. At the same time, however, there's kind of pro-authoritarianism tendency going on as these politicians do their best to undermine democracy by acting stupidly.

I recalled back in the 1950s, US Ambassador Cummings asked Ruslan Abdoelgani whether Indonesian democracy would last, and the latter said that decades of Indonesian democracy+political movement could not be overturned. Of course, now we knew that within a few years, Sukarno launched his Guided Democracy followed by Suharto's New Order. Those two periods created a very traumatized society, making them politically averse and infantile.

So, while authoritarianism would improve everything, especially by getting rid of those clowns in the parliament, the problem is that authoritarianism would wipe out the generational change you mentioned and put us back to start.

So pessimistic so early in the morning. Need to switch tea.


enakajah

8:16am Feb 21, 2012

Yohannes, The pro-Authoritarian tendency is cultural. You know this more than I do. This comes from centuries of Indonesian and dare I say it Asian based culture. Respect your elders right or wrong. Taken to an extreme here where that situation is paid for and then demanded by the poor excuse we have for politicians. But it is not an option to be allowed to expand.

Lee Kwan Yew also said it would take decades for Indonesia to develop a democracy that works after the fall of Soeharto and it looks like he is right.

But in the end, good, bad or indifferent, this must be resolved by Indonesians in a manner for Indonesians and despite the teething pains we are going through just now, eventually given time, a great deal of time, it will be resolved the Indonesian way.

In the mean time of course everyone suffers.... time for Indonesians to demand a better electoral method or start a party that provides representatives from each constituency that people know and recognize.

Yohannes, there is no need to be pessimistic, all change takes time, changing from one tea to another is I agree traumatic especially in the morning...... :)

Have a little more faith in the people of Indonesia, eventually once the current era of nonsense is over and done with an Indonesian democracy or system will prevail.

Just don't hold your breath. It will take time, a very long time. However please show me a country where it didn't. Instant good government.... We all wish....its just not the nature of the beast.


Yohanes-Sulaiman

8:42am Feb 21, 2012

@enakajah: Call me naive, but I do hope that Indonesia could get rid of their pro-Authoritarian tendency -- and actually I do hope that the explosion of the mass media, critical to the government, could help fostering such libertarian attitude.

The media needs to be responsible, however, otherwise the sensationalism style journalism could throw cold water.


padt

9:41am Feb 21, 2012

enakajah/Yohanes-Sulaiman - I think you are both saying the same thing only differently and in fact are in basic agreement. Not completely - but essentially where it matters.

The issue of time - how long will it take - is important.

For me - it gets dfown to the simple reality that the government is distracted from its real opurpose. Its real purpose is to govern the country and make it a better place in all ways for the population. Instead the government is concerned with self enrichment and maintaining power (to enrich themselves) at all cost.

The average politicial and official here are not average - they are sub average - and fools into the bargain.

The worry is - where are the people of integrity to replace them?

And integrity is lacking in Indonesian social thought because of the way people think. Here it is a feudal society based on 'respect' right or wrong which makes as much sense as saying, "My Mother, drunk or sober'. If the old girl is sloshed, tell her to sober up.

Sunday, June 17, 2012

Mobocracy Rules in Indonesia, Where the Government Hasn’t Earned Respect

I think this is one of my decent articles. Written rather quick, having read/watched the anti-FPI movements in Kalimantan.

In essence, mob action will always be a common occurence in Indonesia until the government actually gets serious in implementing law impartially and shutting down all the violent thugs organizations that masquerading as defenders of Islamic values.
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Mobocracy Rules in Indonesia, Where the Government Hasn’t Earned Respect

Yohanes Sulaiman | February 16, 2012

Last weekend, a large Dayak crowd assembled at Palangkaraya Airport in Central Kalimantan to impede the arrival of top leaders from the Islamic Defenders Front, who were on their way to the province to attend an opening ceremony of their new branch there.

In an ironic twist, the leaders of hard-line organization, who are usually not shy about using mass action to cause societal disruptions, were the ones who cried foul this time. They even demanded an investigation of the conduct of the Central Kalimantan governor and the provincial police chief.

While many activists lauded the comeuppance at the expense of the group known as the FPI, people should actually be concerned. The reason this turn of events should worry Indonesians is that apparently it takes a village (with a nod to US Foreign Affairs Minister Hillary Clinton) to stand up to this violent mass organization.

It took nothing less than a group of Dayaks, who have a reputation as fierce, head-hunting warriors infamous for massacring Madurese people in Central Kalimantan during the tumultuous period after the fall of Suharto, to make people think of doing something about the FPI.

Last month, after FPI supporters attacked the building housing the Home Affairs Ministry over a decision to alter several regional bylaws concerning the sale and distribution of alcohol, the minister threatened to disband the organization. But nothing came of the threat. Only the Dayaks seem to be able to put a stop to the FPI.

Why has the government not launched an initiative to solve this problem of violent mass organizations that are out of control?

“Strong backers” is one of the most-quoted reasons for the government’s deplorable responses to the antics of such groups. Some of the mass organizations have their roots in the New Order era, with various vested interests guarding them. Many also emerged in the years after Suharto stepped down; their setup was backed by disgruntled generals who did not like where the country was going. Sometimes they were funded with foreign money, as noted in many excellent briefings authored by Sidney Jones of the International Crisis Group.

The mass organizations, however, would not have lasted long if politicians had no use for them. They are mostly used for helping the politicians garner votes, and they are particularly helpful when someone contesting an election is virtually unknown among the electorate. One survey estimates only 10 percent of the population knows who their legislative representatives are. As a result, these mass organizations play a critical role for politicians on the campaign trail.

What our lawmakers do not realize is that by cultivating those violent mass organizations, Indonesia has initiated a vicious cycle. The country is descending into a “mobocracy,” where it takes a mob to get something done, often to the detriment of the country’s interests as a whole. By promoting often-violent mass organizations, they are together building the proverbial doomsday machine, brilliantly illustrated in Stanley Kubrik’s “Dr. Strangelove.”

Dr. Strangelove is a black comedy about the Soviet Union building a machine that would trigger a series of nuclear explosions to annihilate life on earth should the United States decide to use a nuclear device against it. Theoretically, the device is perfect, in that the United States would essentially commit suicide by bombing the Soviet Union, thus preventing the Americans from attacking.

Yet, the planner did not envision there would be an American insane enough to actually bomb the Soviet Union, by exploiting a loophole in the chain of command, leaving the US government scrambling to stop the destruction of the Soviet Union — and the world.

The same logic is at play in Indonesia today. But rather than the government being caught unaware of a critical loophole, our march toward doomsday seems a natural outcome of the ineffective, tone-deaf government itself. Instead of listening to the people’s complaints about organizations like the FPI and taking appropriate action, the government does nothing. Officials do, however, find time to compose feel-good music albums (e.g. the president’s “Harmony”) and create ineffective band-aid programs such as the Pancasila education initiative, which do not address the root of the problem.

At the same time, the House of Representatives, instead of listening to the needs of the people, indulges itself in an orgy of spending, wasting the state budget on luxurious furniture and useless study trips. The notoriously corrupt law enforcement system fiddles while the country burns. The courts dole out questionable verdicts, such as a six-month jail sentence to of the Ahmadiyah victims of last year’s attack in Cikeusik, Banten.

Seeing that the government, the law enforcement apparatus and the legislature are not responsive to any complaints — unless the complainants are powerful, well-connected rich people, public figures or a mob — people simply create mass organizations, violent or not. Regardless of whether they have legitimate grievances, people have started to realize that in order to be heard by the government, one needs a mob.

In Indonesia, arguments that in countries with functioning democracies would be settled in court and enforced by the government are left to spiral out of control. The dispute over the regional minimum wage in the Cikarang industrial estate led to the blocking of the toll road between Jakarta and Bandung, crippling the major transportation artery and costing businesses billions of rupiah in lost revenues. Said Iqbal, president of the National Wage Council, was quoted by Tempo as bluntly telling Coordinating Minister for the Economy Hatta Rajasa the logic behind the blockade. “Because we shut down the toll gates, you summoned us, right?” Said said.

In Bandung, in order to prevent being evicted by a building owner, the mass organization known as Gibas recently led a blockade of a main thoroughfare. In Bogor, radical Muslim groups such the Indonesian Muslim Communication Forum (Forkami) and Islamic Reform Movement (Garis) have barred the GKI Yasmin congregation from worshipping in their own church building, even though the Supreme Court had ruled in favor of the church.

With the wheel of Indonesian bureaucracy always grinding slowly thanks to massive amounts of red tape, indecision, finger-pointing and even plain indifference, the people’s trust in the state and the rule of law is steadily declining.

While the government beats its chest for achieving 6.6 percent economic growth in 2011, this is still far below Indonesia’s real potential. Many domestic and international investors remain wary of long-term investment in Indonesia due to the potential instability that is solely to blame on the proliferation of violent organizations and uncontrolled mobs.

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sutaniskandarmuda

11:31am Feb 17, 2012

'The notoriously corrupt law enforcement system fiddles while the country burns'... Mobocracy ...
Wow! Awesome article Mr. Sulaiman. Just awesome.


facepalm

12:41pm Feb 17, 2012

another great piece of journalism - well done sir.


DrDez

12:53pm Feb 17, 2012

One of your most sharp commentaries Yohanes, thank you.

The mob is now empowered and not just a paid tool anymore. People are it seems screaming for justice and fairness aside from the usual clamor for money or god.

The President and his chums would do well to look to the Arab nations and pay particular attention to the period Dec 10 to March 11. Examine the causes and the effects and take a look at the outcome. It can be avoided if you truly want it to be but that would mean concessions - concessions I feel the elite are unwilling or unable (because of allegiances or 'knowledge') to make

The Indonesian public - who have had virtually no media coverage of events in the Arab states - would also do well to take a look

Its only a matter of time before someone steps up and challenges the current situation - what that person represents may well determine the shape of the nation in the coming years and how we evolve on a global scale

The wave is coming - I hope you have your life jackets


jchay

1:40pm Feb 17, 2012

As always, well done Yohanes for putting our cries in words! Yes, it's quickly building up and only a matter of one opportunity.. be well prepared, Indonesians.

Sunday, June 10, 2012

India Porn Scandal Holds Important Lesson for Indonesia's PKS

Self explanatory. Indonesia needs more accountability.

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India Porn Scandal Holds Important Lesson for Indonesia's PKS

Yohanes Sulaiman & Phillip Turnbull | February 16, 2012

Last week, three ministers from Karnataka state in India resigned their positions after having been accused of watching a pornographic video during an assembly session. Even though the three ministers denied the accusation, claiming that they were only watching a video of a rave party, their Bharatiya Janata Party flatly ordered them to resign, lest its name be tarnished.

The Indian scandal should ring a bell in Indonesia. Last year, Prosperous Justice Party (PKS) politician Arifinto was caught by a photographer watching pornography on a tablet PC during a plenary meeting at the House of Representatives on April 8. This case triggered a public uproar — as Arifinto’s party was behind the notorious anti-pornography law — but unlike the Indian scenario, it would take no less than half a year before he would be out of the House.

Both India’s BJP and the PKS here are known for their brands of religious fanaticism. The BJP, for instance, was widely criticized for its tolerance of Hindu radicals and its right wing was deemed to be responsible for clashes with the Muslim minority in India. The PKS, on the other hand, supports Mayor Diani Budiarto of Bogor, who has shown contempt for the Constitution by ignoring a Supreme Court ruling in the ongoing GKI Yasmin controversy there.

The similarity, however, ends here. While the BJP forced its ministers to pack their bags immediately, the PKS allowed the Arifinto scandal to linger.

How is this possible and what does it mean for the future of Indonesia’s most prominent Islam-based party?

Arifinto’s defense was that he had received an e-mail from an anonymous person. He said he opened an attachment, which turned out to contain pornography, but pictures suggested otherwise.

Amid public pressure, Arifinto said he would resign: “As a pioneer in my party, I am drawn to take responsibility [for my actions] for the sake of the continuity and good image of my party.”

The announced resignation brought Arifinto praise and admiration from all quarters. Deputy House Speakers Pramono Anung and Priyo Budi Santoso lauded him and suggested he was a model of responsibility and accountability for other politicians, all too rare these days.

Facing inquiries from the press on whether he was really resigning, Arifinto was quoted as saying: “I am serious. If the PKS asks me to write a letter of resignation ... I will do it right away.”

But things turned bizarre when, on April 29, Arifinto turned up at the House for work as usual. He announced that his letter of resignation had been submitted to the PKS and had to be approved by the party’s executive board and the General Elections Commission (KPU). After that, the next stage would be the OK from the Home Affairs Ministry, before moving on to the State Secretariat and finally the presidential nod and signature.

By this time it seemed that Arifinto had changed his mind and his tactics. Shifting responsibility for his resignation away from himself and onto his party, he decided to play for time. This way he might stall or even renege on his promise by relying on the notoriously slow and inefficient Indonesian bureaucracy.

Not surprisingly, House leaders began to get fidgety as Arifinto’s antics didn’t make them look good. On top of that, he appeared to be challenging their role in the protocols. Arifinto continued to claim that as long as his resignation had not been processed and the president had not signed off on it, he would stay on. And presumably he continued to draw a salary.

Things remained as they were until May 5, when the PKS announced that Mardani would replace Arifinto. Mustafa Kamal, PKS leader at the House, said Mardani would take up his post somewhere “in the immediate future.”

Yet months went by before on Sept. 9, House Speaker Marzuki Alie complained that Arifinto was still considered an “active lawmaker” and drawing a salary. Rather than taking responsibility as the speaker of the legislature, Marzuki blamed the PKS for not taking any action.

On Oct. 20, Mardani was finally inaugurated at the House, and Arifinto was out. But by allowing the process to take several months, our representatives made a mockery of the idea that politicians have to own up to their actions.

For the BJP, the pornographic scandal was intolerable. It went against its credibility and morality as a Hindu nationalist party — especially in the face of potentially losing precious votes in the prosperous Karnataka state. For the no-less-moralistic, Islam-based PKS, however, it seems that its pornographic scandal was just a minor inconvenience.

This difference in attitude is exactly the reason why the BJP is India’s second-largest party, while the PKS remains small. This is unlikely to change: Indonesia may have to tolerate a certain amount of hypocrisy in politics, but voters won’t stimulate the practice at the polls.

---

quas

11:28am Feb 16, 2012

What does it say here? Hindus have a lower tolerance for hypocrisy than Muslims


devine

11:54am Feb 16, 2012

ques; maybe. Could also be that the Indians take there mandate seriously while here it is just playing around...

didikarjadi

12:13pm Feb 16, 2012

It is just more evidence that despite our religious piety and ritualistic behavior and endless hypocrisy, we are arguably one of the most, if not the most, morally fragile nations on the Planet.
padt

6:41pm Feb 16, 2012

What alarms me is the disdain with which politicians treat the public. They behave as if a vote doesn't count and that they are untouchable.

Perhaps they are.

Perhaps a vote here is worthless - that the elctoral system is such that the people who end up in the House are put there by the Parties and their rich backers not the voice of the people expressed in the ballot box.

In other places politicians who act like this are chucked out by the public - and the politicians live in fear of it.

Not much fear of voter backlash in Indonesia. A fair bit of scorn and contempt seems to be the way politicians act.

I saw this in action at the airport once.

One of Indonesia's 'best' and honest politicians walked though the terminal. I watched her intently. She looked at the public as if they were scum and smelt. Not a smile, not a word to anyone, not any acknowledgment of anyone. She walked by with an arrogant look on her face and her head held high. And she's supposed to be one of the best.

devine

8:11pm Feb 16, 2012

padt; yes...they are untouchable (only maybe 0.00001% get caught doing something wrong... maybe they didnt pay off enough people). Yes, too, the vote is worthless. And, you must be talking about Mega. My father in law run for a seat at DPR. Big fuzz, inviting all friends to organize votes for him; simple question of mine: what is your program? Answer; big SMILE and "we dont need program, we only need votes". Says it all...


DrDez

8:32pm Feb 16, 2012

devine
Interesting... In 2nd free election (sic) a man I had known for many years ran with Golkar. I thought him a decent man, good to his workers, family and all round good egg

One evening he had people 'round' prior to his election including Bu n I. After all the usual stuff (lots of spirts BTW) everyone went, as we went to go he asked me what I thought. I asked him about his policies (which I expected us to be listening to)

His answer was 'oh we can sort that out once Im in the house'... so I asked what was the purpose of tonight - His answer with a big smile... 'to guage how much I will need to borrow to get elected'... since then he has gone on to be a decent member of the house I think - I cannot help notice however his massively increased and obvious wealth - from 7 Series BMW's to at least 3 luxury homes in less than a decade... Impressive stuff


devine

9:13pm Feb 16, 2012

Yes DrDez. Exactly. That is how it works. And I guess there is also only a 0.00001% exception to this. Somehow I think we are doomed. No, wrong. We are doomed. When I was young I thought/dreamed positively and enthusiasticlly "what would I do if I were Pres" (still believing that our country could make everybody progress in one or the other way). I have given up... it has become such a mess.


Yohanes-Sulaiman

7:31am Feb 17, 2012

@All: thanks for your comments. I don't think Hindu has less tolerance to hypocrisy, it is just like Devine and Dr.Dez impliy: they don't take their voters for granted, unlike in Indonesia, where they expect to BUY votes and then use their time in the government to recoup the investment and to gain some nice tidy profit before retiring, sometimes forced, into a short pleasant time in private, air-conditioned, luxurious rooms in prisons.

Wednesday, June 6, 2012

Nasrep, Tommy and the Smiling General

Not sure what else to add.

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Nasrep, Tommy and the Smiling General

Yohanes Sulaiman & Phillip Turnbull | February 09, 2012

Hoping to bypass the government’s verification process for new political parties, the National Republic Party last week decided to merge with the struggling Ummah Conscience Party, which participated in the 2009 elections and can run again in 2014. As a result, the new party, led by Hutomo “Tommy” Mandala Putra, the son of Indonesia’s former presidential strongman Suharto, can now throw its hat in the ring, too.

The National Republic Party, known as Nasrep, has indicated that it will base its platform on the policies espoused by Suharto, who was ousted by popular dissent in 1998 and died in 2008. By doing this, Tommy hopes to tap into the popular discontent of people who are fed up with the scandals under President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and the self-enriching House of Representatives. Many wish to return to what they perceive as the more stable times of Suharto.

So is Tommy asking us to believe that the best way forward is a few steps back?

For 32 years, Suharto ruled Indonesia by sheer force, and his achievements were staggering. He pushed Indonesia ahead economically, especially by developing energy resources and mining, and he can be credited with laying the foundations for unprecedented economic growth today. One can only wonder what would have happened had he also recognized that economic growth must be accompanied by political reforms.

During Suharto’s reign, Indonesia experienced relative peace among its highly diverse religious, cultural and ethnic groups. Backed by the military, Suharto ruled from a centralized stronghold with little real diffused authority in the provinces. Corruption, cronyism and nepotism of course existed but were not widely dispersed.

However, Indonesia under Suharto experienced a not-so-benign patrimonial tyranny that kept the country reasonably stable only because of the overly docile nature of the average Indonesian. Whatever benefits Suharto brought, the price in terms of human rights abuses and a reign of terror was simply too high.

Suharto’s reputation will be forever tarnished by charges that he looked after his family more than the interests of the country. The problem is that this mentality continues to persist today in some circles. Like Suharto, many politicians still stand in the way of political reform, while a tyranny of money politics spreads corruption into practically every aspect of public life..

But times have also changed, and people are not as docile as they were under Suharto’s hard-handed reign. While there is little threat that the country will disintegrate with seceding provinces, despite the problems in Papua, there is another possibility: Indonesia could face disintegration in the sense that its people, once united by tolerance, may fall apart. The present situation contains the seeds of potential social and political upheaval on a massive scale. Suharto kept things in check, but governments since have not been able to do so.

Look at the closure of the GKI Yasmin church in Bogor. In a recent meeting between Yudhoyono and religious leaders from Papua, when the president promised to solve the problems in the province, the Rev. Socratez Sofyan Yoman asked: “How can you solve the problems in Papua, which is located thousands of kilometers [from Jakarta], while there is a very urgent matter that also requires your attention just 15 kilometers from here — the GKI Yasmin case?”

Yudhoyono has said he does not have the power to do anything about the Bogor situation, which he has left for regional authorities. Suharto would have smiled at this response — and done something.

At the same time, like some politicians today, Suharto was tragically adverse to political change, and this proved to be his undoing. He did not prepare to move on and let someone else have a go. Perhaps he thought, as no doubt many of his subjects did, that no one wanted him to go. It was a rude shock when he found out in 1998 that he had been wrong.

Nothing was in place to replace the dictator, whose downfall led to chaos, mayhem and murder, and the damage remains today. Years of living under Suharto has left the political class largely infantile and unable to shoulder responsibility, leading the late President Abdurrahman “Gus Dur” Wahid to complain that Indonesian politicians behaved like kindergarteners.

So what will Tommy do? Will he learn from his father’s mistakes? Will he make a strong leader? Will his Nasrep Party understand what few do, that the first duty of a politician is to take a form of responsibility that outweighs family ties, personal monetary gain and popularity?

Tommy’s track record to date does not indicate that he fully understands this role. Ten years ago, he was jailed for ordering the murder of a Supreme Court judge who had convicted him of fraud in 2000. That fraud conviction was overturned and he was freed after serving four years, but since leaving prison, what has he done for the country?

There is no doubt that as Tommy’s party seeks the limelight, we can expect more nostalgia for the “good” old days of the New Order. But should that translate into a desire for a return to Suharto’s style of government? It’s one thing to idealize the past, but what if we conveniently forget that Suharto was responsible for serious crimes against humanity and plundering Indonesia’s wealth?

At the time of Suharto’s death, Yudhoyono spoke of the former dictator as a national hero, asking delegates at an international conference on corruption to acknowledge his passing with a minute of silence. The ironic act indicates that perhaps the nation is not yet able to deal with the Suharto experience.

With the rise of Tommy’s party, maybe it is time for Indonesia to definitively decide whether Suharto’s regime was good for Indonesia. Suharto to some extent achieved a tolerant, diversified Indonesia, but at the end of the day, he did not make the country a better place. On the contrary, his legacy has provided a pattern for today’s political shortcomings. Tommy’s party needs to recognize this if it is to contribute to a better Indonesia.



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trueblue

1:02pm Feb 9, 2012


Yohanes/Turnbull

Gents, you ask a very relevant question with a proposition that for Indonesia to move forward, it needs to take a few steps back. A simple glance in the political rear vision mirror indicates that Indonesia needs to put the indicators on and have them blinking right. Any further centre lane, or heaven forbid left lane politics is old news. The experimenting politics to date have given a credible 6.5%GDP, but the spread of wealth and employment, and minimum wages leave a country with an imbalance. May I suggest that NRP, by virtue of consolidation of political parties is a step in the right direction of reducing the the number of parties, and therefore enabling the concepts of government, opposition, coalitions, to be more identifiable to the voter. I have posted in previous weeks the concepts of strong leadership, and examples to debate. As a non voter this is not an endorsement of the NRP, but a plea to get it right at the next election. My wife thinks when she votes


Yohanes-Sulaiman

8:45am Feb 10, 2012


@Trueblue: Thank you for your comments.

I actually agree with more consolidation of Indonesian political parties. First of all, it will reduce confusion on the ballot boxes, second, most of the extremists' parties, including the porn-obsessed party (you know who) would keep losing their share of votes, as the political parties become more and more consolidated. This current system actually rewards the extremist parties for their extremism as even a small number of votes allow them to retain their seats. Should they have to integrate to a much larger parties, they have to be more moderate to attract votes all over the place.

Still, I doubt if NRP's acquisition is a trend toward responsible party system. Rather it is simply bypassing the party-stress test and take the shortcut to the election, which kinda indicates what kind of party they'd be should they get elected.

Sunday, June 3, 2012

Letters to Editor on "Reagan."


This is the comment to my "Reagan" article. I actually complained to my editor at the Jakarta Globe, asking how on earth he published this without first informing me, and thus I could put my reply right next to his. My editor conceded that it was an error on his part, and asked me to dash a reply ASAP.

I wrote mine in less than 1 hour.

While his idea is great at a glance, by the end of the day, his left-wing solutions, pursued to its logical conclusion, would lead to more anarchy. Why would anyone rely to the judicial system if there's a more effective way to get what you want, e.g. violence?

Change the players, and you may end up completely disagree with his entire premise. Take the example of extremist groups such as the Islamic Defender Front (FPI). The Islamists were also harrassed and banned during the New Order, not unlike the Labor Union. Therefore,should we give them a free pass? Should we allow them to pursue their anarchic actions in closing houses of worships, attacking stores that stock alcoholic beverages, and restaurants that sell food during the fasting month, since they obviously cannot rely on a "long and expensive courts?"

I am consistent. I oppose anarchic actions by every single group because it may create a legal precedent and further undermine the judiciary system.

Left unmentioned were the leftist's strikes and unrests in the 1950s that played a major role too in causing the collapse of the Constitutional Democracy of 1950s, as it undermined the technocratic governments of Natsir and Wilopo, and also the communist-backed takeover of Dutch's enterprises led to the eventual military takeover of those enterprises and setting up the foundation of the New Order.

Therefore, the title "Study History First" is flat wrong. The esteemed writer, I think, has a very little understanding of Indonesian history.

The bad thing about the debate? I wasn't paid at all. What a waste of time.

Anyhow, I would suggest everyone to read George Orwell's marvelous books, such as Down and Out in Paris and London and Road to Wigan Pier, and his essay “The Lion and the Unicorn." It is a good preparation to harsh world ahead.


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Letter to the Editor: Study History First, Don’t Bash Workers
Sigfried S. Looho | February 20, 2012




Earlier this month, there was a disturbing opinion piece in your paper regarding traffic disturbances caused by labor protests (Yohanes Sulaiman, “When It Comes to Taming Labor Unions, Indonesia Can Learn a Lot From Reagan, ”Jakarta Globe, Feb. 3). One need not be a leftist to shudder at biased insensitiveness. This struck me — a student of free-market economics and securities law — as historically uninformed. I believe the esteemed writer must carefully consider his own history before embarking upon such workers bashing.

First, the esteemed writer overlooked the long plight of workers who suffered “severe repression in the name of socially responsible economic unionism” during the New Order, as argued by scholar Michele Ford in 2005. After the banning of left-wing unions and the annihilation of the communist-linked All Indonesia Center of Labor Organizations (SOBSI), Indonesian labor activism was castrated by single-union policy.

This leads to my second point: that although Reformasi saw an influx in the formation of unions, 10 years later, there is still no coherent workers representation at the national political level. Here I also note scholar Dan Slater’s scathing 2004 analysis of the cartelization of Indonesian politics, which further asphyxiated the workers’ voice. Therefore, the esteemed writer’s suggestion that the government “learn to act with determination vis-a-vis workers” is oddly juxtaposed with New Order “heavy-handedness.”

Third, the argument about the judiciary is simply hard to follow. The writer basically argues that the unions would have “submitted” to an Indonesian Employers Association (Apindo) victory but for the Indonesian judiciary’s bad image, hence the case for judicial reform. This argument is again insensitive and shows a misguided conception about legal systems in general. Even in the United States lawsuits are long and expensive. It is hard to imagine unions having a chance against well-organized and well-financed bodies such as Apindo.

Finally, the esteemed writer’s comparison of the judiciaries of Indonesia and the United States is just unfortunate. If the integrity, efficiency and consistency of our legal system would be half that of the United States, Indonesia would be a totally different country.

My message is simple: unless one genuinely considers our workers’ pain-riddled history and current disenfranchisement, one should not conduct such virulent worker bashing. As we embark upon reforming our labor code in order to make Indonesia more attractive for much-needed investment, genuine history lessons become even more necessary.

Sigfried S. Looho, law and business graduate student at Cornell Law School and the London School of Economics
           
----------------

Letter to the Editor: Study Indonesia First, Don’t Bash Opinions
Yohanes Sulaiman | February 21, 2012

I would like to thank Mr. Sigfried S. Looho for his comments. While Mr. Looho raised many interesting points in his reply to my Feb. 3 article titled “When It Comes to Taming Labor Unions, Indonesia Can Learn a Lot From Reagan,” unfortunately his replies were marred by careless reading.

Let me address his third point first, which is built upon grave mischaracterization of my argument. I argued that trust in the Indonesian judiciary is declining, which would raise the issue of fairness, whether the court is influenced by the moneyed interests or the pitch-fork-wielding mob. Regardless of who wins, there will be someone crying foul: thus the difficulties to rely on the judiciary as the disinterested party.

Mr. Looho, however, seems to argue that the workers should instead disregard the judiciary system because “lawsuits are long and expensive.” While such action would seem to be appropriate from the comforts of the ivory tower in the prosperous and stable the United States or Great Britain, without trust in law enforcement, could any state function?

Like I argued in one of my recent articles, people then would rely on the mob, causing social and religious conflicts. Such anarchic condition, which will cost many in terms of property and even life, seems to be a welcomed development for Mr. Looho. Unfortunately, Indonesia had enough of its share of social unrest, which happened in the early years of Reformation and caused much economic and social hardship, and not to mention deaths. A second helping is not welcomed.

In fact, such was the fear of many Indonesians that the anarchic actions by labor unions and many other groups are not that popular. In my article I suggested the labor unions behave strategically, ensuring that the population remains behind their back thanks to their orderly and wise course of actions. Thus the lesson from Reagan: because people do not like massive public discomfort, unions should avoid causing just that.

In short, I believe the esteemed commenter must carefully consider what’s going on in Indonesia before embarking upon such opinion bashing.


-------------------------


nonredneck
9:11pm Feb 20, 2012
Here is the link: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/yohanes-sulaiman-indonesia-can-learn-from-reagan-about-taming-labor-unions/495414

Sigfried: Are you going to make appearances to defend your stance and be prepared for onslaught like yohanes do on almost all his pieces ?? If not then NOBODY should take this complaining piece seriously.


SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
12:19am Feb 21, 2012
On the contrary NRN, The initial invocation of Reagan, who basically said implicitly that he wasn't going to enforce the current labour laws and was thus quite simply a criminal, was odious. This is an excellent piece and extremely refreshing in a country where organized labour has had such a terrible time and has often been brutally repressed. It's a long established fact that unions and organized labour are the most dominant factors in building a more equitable society and lowering crippling poverty. The evidence for this is simply overwhelming, however the invidious hand of our propaganda systems aim to paint a different picture. Indonesians (and Americans and increasingly most of the developed world) can only dream of political representation predicated on such organizations. There is another tradition though...


trueblue
7:23am Feb 21, 2012
@nonredneck
You are spot on. The repetitious use of the condescending term "esteemed writer" attempting to demean Yohanes, shows the stuff that comrade Sigfried is made of. Give him a miss.


Yohanes-Sulaiman
7:56am Feb 21, 2012
I have already sent my reply to the editor and they will hopefully publish it soon.

@SirAnthony: That response that I submitted will also answer your comments.


Yohanes-Sulaiman
7:57am Feb 21, 2012
@nonredneck: I think I response to ALL comments, especially the criticism, except when the criticism is a ad-hominem attack, thus not worthy of a reply. So, please let me know should I miss someone.


nonredneck
4:14pm Feb 21, 2012
SAKB: Same destination,only difference is how we get there. Ur camp want the people to benefit from economic activities, only to get there u supported ppl's protest on the stret,to strike,at the cost of halting economic activities,equal %raise in salary &benefits to ALL strikers without considering individual merits. I also want the people to benefit from economic activities,only to get there I supported skills upgrade, self-enhancement, increase salary & benefits based on each individual merit. I don't support strike,for the crippling cases such as BA & qantas,not so much victimized the corp for losing mil$/day, but victimizing innocent stranded customers.When this becomes widespread, meaning all workers in all industries see 'economic kidnapping' as best option, they will exercise it without restrain (e.g. teamsters often exploited this in the past).What does this crippling econ-kidnapping lead to? Damaging the country,econ activities,innocent bystanders,& ofcourse strikers & family.


nonredneck
4:15pm Feb 21, 2012
trueblue: lol, "comrade" sigfried. capitalist by birth, socialist by adoption?


nonredneck
4:16pm Feb 21, 2012
Yohanes: Don't want to be too presumtuous, to be safe I say "almost all" incase there are missed ones. I'm looking forward to reading sigfried's reply.


Yohanes-Sulaiman

4:32pm Feb 21, 2012

@nonredneck: My apology if I sounded too harsh in my reply to you. I did not mean to put you on spot, just inquiring whether I miss someone. But yeah, it came across badly, so again I would like to apologize should you feel offended.

Anyway, my reply to this letter is up.

nonredneck
6:06pm Feb 21, 2012
Don't bother yohanes, came across as nth.

The reply not so visible but found it here:
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-study-indonesia-first-dont-bash-opinions/499454

S.S.Looho
1:46am Feb 22, 2012
Dr. Sulaiman at al, please see my reply in your latest piece.
http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/opinion/letter-to-the-editor-study-indonesia-first-dont-bash-opinions/499454

shalom wass.

agentmacgyver
7:44pm Feb 21, 2012
Reliance on the judiciary is hopeless, if the chapter "Judicial Mafia" in KITLV's recent publication "The State and Illegality in Indonesia" holds any water. No matter how organized, labor will never be able to outspend corporations for judicial consideration.

Yohanes-Sulaiman
9:15pm Feb 21, 2012
@agentmacgyver: Well, you can either bring the corporate money to bribe the judges, or bring the pitchfork wielding mobs. Both of them work very well to intimidate the judges, as seen in recent cases in Indonesia.

Still, that does not undermine my argument that judicial reform is a must in order to create a lawful and just society.


agentmacgyver
10:00pm Feb 21, 2012
@Yohanes: Thank you for the response. I agree judicial reform would be great. But as the aforementioned 2011 publication concludes, it will take many many years if it is in fact possible. Hence the reading of your argument as one in favor of the status quo to the continued disadvantage of the poor. It would require more creative minds than ours to find a middle ground between "Let's hope they get a fair hearing from our judiciary" (your explicit argument) and "Gather ye pitchforks" (imputed straw man).

Serigala-Berbulu-Domba
10:18pm Feb 21, 2012
Unfotunately when it is readily apparent that there are so many individuals taking advantage of their positions in society to extract tribute from the system in the form of favorable deals and other forms of corruption, it is little wonder that Unions (and other groups in society) exercise their power or threat of power to also extract tibute from the system in various forms.

Yohanes-Sulaiman
10:48pm Feb 21, 2012
@agentmacgyver: I am not sure it is an imputed strawman, considering the fact that mob actions do influence the judicial decisions -- the Cikeusik case came to mind. I am not favoring the status quo, mind you, as Indonesian judiciary system still has a long way to go to become a truly independent and professional agency. At the same time, however, I am completely at loss to your real argument here. Are you arguing that workers should be allowed to resort to anarchic actions to get their voices to be heard? While I may be "guilty" for succumbing to "status quo," I don't think that you have any ground to stand on anyway.

@Serigala-Berbulu-Domba: I agree, and it is a deplorable system that needs to be fixed.


S.S.Looho

1:45am Feb 22, 2012

[Reply combined to make it easier for dear readers to comprehend.]

Dr. Sulaiman, thank you for your reply. Indonesia is undergoing a period of legal stabilization. Every segments of society are realizing newfound liberties and rights. Islamists have their parties, Christians their NGOs, businesses their lobby groups, Chinese their charities. Sadly, the labor movements are fragmented and aphonic. Going to the streets is, therefore, cathartic – a response to disenfranchisement and legislative and executive neglect.

Unfortunately, the only way for workers to politically engage the Jakarta public is to cause ‘sedikit macet-macet’. After all, we, the middle class, were too busy riding Indonesia’s emerging markets boom and neglect them continually. Further, ‘macet-macet’ is not a monopoly of laborers: anything – from demonstrasi to weddings to mother nature – causes traffic jams these days! Maybe the main issue at play is poor infrastructure!

The leap from collective action to anarchism – even when conditioned by a weak judiciary – seems far-fetched. The former is a “fundamental right of workers”, while the latter is a failure of law enforcement & governance. Collective action is not a necessary condition of anarchism nor of traffic disturbances. Moreover, weak governance should not discount this “fundamental right”.

Indonesia suffered from too much bloodbath which remain unanswered and unpunished. One of the victims of our history is the kaum buruh and by virtue of their past pains, Indonesia owes much ethical duties. The middle ground espoused by @agentmacgyver should be a musyawarah-spirit. Society – led by intellectuals like Dr. Sulayman – should react by facilitating genuine labor-business discourse instead of pushing for government clamp down. Genuine discourse will act as a release valve which – in the long run – will prevent that much-feared “anarchic condition”.
In short, rather than feeling alienated, we must have compassion. Rather than being angry for ‘macet-macet’, society must really study how our workers arrived to where they are – voiceless and defenseless – that they had to resort to the streets to risk their livelihood.

POSTSCRIPT
@TB: the term “esteemed writer” signifies Dr. Sulaiman’s academic seniority.

@TB & NRN: calling one “comrade” – implying Communist affinities – may be jokey in Anglo-Saxon societies. In Indonesia, millions died because of such accusations. Such name-calling is therefore distasteful and shows the ahistorical insensitivity I had been writing against.

Finally, to clarify, I made no arguments, implied or otherwise, (i) that workers “should” disregard the legal system or (ii) that I “welcome” anarchism. With regards to (i) I merely described an obvious fact: the asymmetry of resources and organizational capabilities between Apindo and the Bekasi workers.

On (ii), suggesting that someone could welcome any form of “anarchic condition[s]” is an insult to all Indonesians – from Glodok to Ambon – who suffered post-Reformasi butchery.

 
DrDez
6:23am Feb 22, 2012
Good response Yohanes - I wait for the response from our esteemed friend too.
Without wishing to be portrayed as a doom merchant I do not think that our judiciary will reform within a frame that heads off the current and impending social/economic unrest and I cannot see trust returning to our administration (enough for them to blag it out anytime soon. Therefore I anticipate more of the same

Yohanes-Sulaiman
9:59am Feb 22, 2012
@Looho: I am troubled with your nonchalant attitude that a little "macet-macet" is okay. It is very irresponsible and in fact insulting to many who had to suffer the Jakarta's horrendeous traffec jam daily.

Collective action is not a license to cause social disruptions. Rather, should they want to do the work stoppage, do it within the confines of the factories.

ON your postcript2(ii): frankly, I don't insult all these Indonesians. It is you, by your trivializing the social disruptions and advocating the disregard to the rule of law and even breaking the law, are the one who are insulting to many Indonesians.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
10:40am Feb 22, 2012
I believe Mr. Sulaiman is an ideological victim of the Mohawk Valley formula.

Yohanes-Sulaiman
11:38am Feb 22, 2012
@SirAnthony: I thought that ad-hominem attack is beneath you.

Apparently I was wrong.


trueblue
12:39pm Feb 22, 2012
@SirAnthony
A chink in the armour is revealed! We know that on this subject you are bent. Normally you are straight down the line, and on the level . . .

                      
DrDez
12:43pm Feb 22, 2012
SAKB - I believe to a lesser or greater extent everyone of us is victim to the wider use of MVF
SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
1:24pm Feb 22, 2012
That's not what ad-hominem means Y-S, you should look it up in the dictionary. An ad-hominem attack would focus on something personal about you that is (big letters) IRRELEVANT to your argument. Pointing out that the inequalities of capitalism are at least partially sustained by a well-functioning propaganda system, of which you appear to be a part, is entirely relevant to the subject we are discussing.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
1:31pm Feb 22, 2012
We are all part of the hegemonic system to a greater or lesser extent of course DD. Greater enlightenment then comes through a questioning of our systems of power and the unspoken ideological assumptions that are disseminated throughout society via the media and our education systems. The mainstream media all over the world tolerates only a narrow spectrum of debate and opinion. People should question how such entities are run, who owns them and in whose interest. Knowledge is power and propaganda techniques have been honed and refined over a whole century now.

trueblue
1:52pm Feb 22, 2012
@SirAnthony
Please don't go down the propaganda path as there's every chance the Godwin factor will spoil the duel.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
2:38pm Feb 22, 2012
Rest assured that I have no intention of dragging Adolf and his single pod into this.

S.S.Looho
4:11pm Feb 22, 2012
@Dr. Sulaiman –– your reply became really personal and it is wrong.

This is what you wrote:
“It is you […] are the one [sic] who are insulting to many Indonesians.”

Once again, as I said in Postscript 2(i) I did not “advocat[e]” (prescribe) or "trivializ[e]" the disregard or breaking of law. I merely stated (descriptively) it is human nature for workers to resort to catharsis – we therefore should not be surprised. My appeal to musyawarah will allow society and government to embrace their concern (mengayomi mereka) and help ensure that in the future such traffic disturbances will not happen again.


nonredneck
4:13pm Feb 22, 2012
[NOTE: Again edited to make it easier to read.]
Hmm..too long where do I begin,I hope webed's system is able to handle it. The word limits should be applied only to new accounts & only occasional commenters btw, nobody likes the word limit.

Appetizer to comrade sigfried: academics especially those coming from an anglo-saxon society like yourself shouldn't be ideologically hypersensitive to a jokey, call me comrade nonredneck anytime, comrade.

Now next to the meaty part.

I don't have the patience to outread the academics here, but I'll share my views based on experience on the ground & practicality outside of books.

Lets look at the 3 major force in this equation:
1. The people (sub sect: customers, employable pool of workforce & their family, bystanders)
2. The engine (sub-sect: start-ups, SME, MNC, investors, innovators)
3. The middle-man (sub-sect: exec-judi-legit, +other interest groups)

In ideal condition,all #1-#3 higly inter-linked equally powerful & influential.This ideal situation is subject to market forces jst like stock prices,from time to time one will be over/under powered,hence correction (crisis) is inevitable everywhere.

In countries where #3 is highly evolved,they act as an expert with their brokerage services. Incompetence leads to replacement or non contract renewal for the next term.

In indo context however;#3 served not as broker,but impediment to#2 & powerful manipulator over#1. [Note: opportunistic parasites/mega-corps utilizing lobbies are considered as #3"interest groups",not the #2engine I'm talking abt to fuel real-econ health).

It is clear in indo situation that both #1 & #2 needs each other & cut the middle-man not offering their expertise,but only sucking parasites to #1 & #2.

Both Sigfried&Yohanes argues on the level of pro-"compassion" vs pro-"sympathy", both agree good judiciary system is needed (only wishful thinking fr now)
Majority here always complain abt the govt & how cr3p it is. YES IT IS. But to assume that changes need to be made @govt-level is only dreaming. In indo: govt isn't the solution, it is the problem.

I don't support govt clamp-down bcs it is an oppression, and I don't support MVF or ford's tactic of attacking protesters. I also do not support street protests in general, because of inability to control emotion & rage, unless the extremely rare leader like gandhi can keep the movement's emotion on the right focus.

Sigfried's argument on having labor union-rep inside the parasitic govt is absolutely out of touch. I can guarantee you 100% whatever rep you put inside there to represent the some kind of union will be infiltrated, contaminated, manipulated, exploited and used as extortion attack dog by the most powerful shadow (e.g. brotherhood of teamster was most severly exploited in the past by the mafia).

"macet-macet" here is NOT "SEDIKIT" like NS-101 during rush hour. We're talking about having a picnic on the highway complete with basketful of food, champagne, watching 2 full movies. Again, you're out of touch even with "macet" I can safely assume YOU WEREN'T THERE!

Sigfried's argument on "fundamental-right" is actually fundamentally-wrong..How so? Fundamental right granted free speech, free to protest, free to advance one's mind, free to pursue wealth and recycle this wealth to educate their next gens, IT DOES NOT GIVE RIGHT TO KIDNAP! DAMAGE other's property, or to ROBBING bystanders/customers of their time, goods, services, or passing through.

Sigfried's "compassionate" is visibly a sign of stockholm syndrome: "Oh pity them..these people are cornered, they're hungry. To fight for their 'fundamental rights' so they should be allowed to kidnap comrade nonredneck to demand ransom from comrade trueblue, in order to feed their poor kids at home"

How does this "compassionate" work if airline/train/bus workers decided in order to get a "holiday bonus" they kidnap the passangers/travelers with strike during christmas /thanksgiving /idulfitri /chinese new year??? sedikit macet-macet ay.

Here's what I think is practical: 1. stop complaining! 2. stop self-pity! 3. nothing is free except for the air we breathe. REALIZE THIS: Changes starts from the people, not the govt, and the engine of econ (aka businesses) NEED GOOD PEOPLE TO RUN either in producing high quality product, or providing high quality services, good management, efficient approaches.

So what is the solution? Definitely not judiciary cr3p. Both workers and businesses need to realize high interdependece nature of their relationship, it is not one of opposition, but of alliance. Any good labor union movement will therefore not support street protests, but to encourage skills & education promotion within it's members.

Any business person will know the most chalenging part of business is none other than its PEOPLE, the most important yet most difficult, keeping quality workers therefore scores highly as a business incentives bcs efficiency, quality, speed, all translates to profit.
Both labor-unions & business-orgs should work together to fund & promote upgrading-skills program, self-enhancement, efficiency approaches, quality services trainings to all the labor union members. Businesses should have no worries bcs there will always be lazy ones out there not willing to attend these programs even if its free for their own benefit, let these pool be the low-skilled demand. At the same time increasing the quality talent pools to reduce need for expat imports /outsource /replace 10-inneficient workers with only 1.

Right now those strikers genuinely want to fight for their own prosperity, wealth, & advancement has no other means but to protest, and they're bunched up together with the opportunistic parasitic ones. How can one tell the difference? Nobody can. Again in all programs, cut the cr3p, keep the parasitic middle-man off.
S.S.Looho

7:23pm Feb 22, 2012

@NRN
(i) quick fyi – Law No. 13 of 2003 Article 137 states that strike is a "fundamental right" of workers and trade unions. Perhaps you would like to lobby the DPR to amend this?

(ii) True, I cannot find a "right to kidnap", "to rob[]" or to "damage [] property" in the labor code.

(iii) Can you explain what disease is causing my compassion "syndrome"? What disease is it to have compassion to our much-repressed workers – who at one point faced segmental annihilation? If John 13:34-35 is a disease, then I am thus afflicted.

Yohanes-Sulaiman
8:49pm Feb 22, 2012
@SirAnthony: "an ideological victim of the Mohawk Valley formula" is not an ad-hominem attack? Try dealing with my argument on its merit, rather thinking of me as just a part of this huge imaginary conspiracy in your mind to undermine the workers' rights.

Just to make it clear: any mob on street is bad in my book. Whether it is Pemuda Pancasila, FPI, unions, or any obscure NGO that came out of nowhere is bad, as it has the potential of causing social disruptions, economic damage, and violence.

If the labors don't like the wage, then go to strike by all mean, but do it within the confines of the factories or simply don't come. Plain and simple. No need to go on street.

@Looho: Didn't you say that "Even in the United States lawsuits are long and expensive?" Basically, don't use the mechanism of law because it is "long and expensive." "Even in the United States?" That's a prescription for lawbreaking.

I am just taking your argument to the fullest extent, mind you.

nonredneck
9:01pm Feb 22, 2012
Sigfried: Might want to rebuild your case prosecutor, all my points are still fully intact.
I'll only hint on how I'd answer your points:
(i) "Changes starts from the people, not the govt (aka cr#3p)". Lobbying defeats your own point.
(ii) How is blockade of a major road artery isn't a kidnapping of innocent bystanders/road-users refused to be let pass through, or goods/service deliveries unable to reach on schedule (some incurring penalty fees on shipment) ???
(iii) stockholm syndrome not a disease, google it if its not clear. And next time someone wants to use king james bible in a debate, i'll pull out my super human kryptonian bible.


Yohanes-Sulaiman
9:02pm Feb 22, 2012
@nonredneck: I love you, in a good way.

@Looho: Again, fundamental rights to strike does not give workers and trade unions the license to cause your so-called "sedikit macet-macet."

Unless you can bear sitting down in traffic for 8+ hours thanks to people blocking the road, you have no rights to tell others to do the same. And no, having a chauffeur does not count.

You reminded me of George Orwell's essay on liberalism. A good one is “The Lion and the Unicorn." Try reading it once in a while.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
11:10pm Feb 22, 2012
It has nothing to do with conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy if people explicitly tell you they are running your lives and they are doing it for your own good. Nobody believes the myths more than those in positions of responsibility, and that includes YOU.

Yohanes-Sulaiman

6:30am Feb 23, 2012
    

@SirAnthony: You know, you raised an interesting point. You said, "It's not a conspiracy if people explicitly tell you they are running your lives and they are doing it for your own good." -- isn't that what YOU are exactly doing at this moment? That, hey, you have to tolerate the strikers who blocked the roads because it is good for you?

In essence, cannot we argue that you are also a huge part of this conspiracy to undermine the stability of the nation, making Indonesia not attractive to investors due to all these strikers, part of commie conspiracy theory, etc? The argument cuts both ways.

Of course, the problem with that argument is that I may do it just for malice, just to make you looks horrible and undermine your credibility, just to score a cheap point, since you cannot refute it, since regardless of anything you do, you are already branded as a part of this "huge conspiracy?"

Just to make my point here, that what you said is an "ad-hominem" attack

trueblue
6:50am Feb 23, 2012
@S.S.Looho
So your fix-it method, as suggested in the Gospel you referred to, is a 1970,s lovey dovey sit in a cicle holding hands group session and singing Kumbyaya. Time for a reality check!


enakajah
8:41am Feb 23, 2012
I wonder how many people here are actual investor/employers? I know at least one is and very successful. In the past he has discussed his method of retaining high quality staff which funnily enough back's NRN to the hilt.
Personally I know that the labour laws here are some of the most pro-worker and hardest on employers/investors I have worked with. This makes corner cutting by those in mass production a necessity and all the evil that goes with it. It is harder and harder to make a profit here as labour laws and worker protection make most companies non-competitive, hence major producers moving to other countries.
Management is the key and co-operative operations with the employees, however most companies do not have this luxury and in the end either use draconian methods or close and everyone looses.
Fundamental right to strike? The worker has a fundamental right to withdraw labour yes. But the employer does not have the same right to withdraw employment!
NRN- you rock.


SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
10:09am Feb 23, 2012
Didn't really understand the pinko references their but as I said, it's not a conspiracy if people tell you they are running your life along neo-liberal economic lines and then proceed to do so without humanity or initiative using methods of corporate propaganda developed and honed by the public relations industry over a century. That's an institutional analysis. Education systems, outside of the sciences, have strong elements of indoctrination running through them which try to discourage independent thinking and subordinate people to the ruling power. Opinion shapers maintain their impartiality on these issues, not realising that if they wanted to say anything in the least bit startling that would dissent from the interests power, they would be marginalised. Writes for a newspaper - check, lectures at an elite university - check, uses phrases like "stability of the nation" in the context of people leading a hand to mouth existence - check. Reagan? Seriously?



Yohanes-Sulaiman
11:03am Feb 23, 2012
@SirAnthony: Ok, now it seems to me that you are just simply chasing Reagan's shadow, with such a major obsession that you'd argue just for the sake of bashing Reagan.

By the end of the day, nobody dares to quote Reagan because the fear of raising the ire of you and your fellow Reaganphobes.

Any dissent would be seen as the "neoliberal economic" stooges, not impartial, victim of propaganda, etc.

Sounds to me like just a censorship that does not allow the exchange of idea. Thoughtpolice anyone?

@enakajah: right on the money.


DrDez
11:33am Feb 23, 2012
EJ - TRUST If the people trust you to be more honest than 'outside influences' & you deliver on your goals they see you care more for them that the 'others' who are often for self gain
We started small & quickly we had a core group of workers 'with us' We paid them better, trained them better, gave them educational opportunities, promoted progression & above all were honest & open. Many of the 'First Team's'* kids & granddkids are now here
This policy has stood us since Noah was a lad and continues
That said it has become increasingly difficult as outside influences have increased incredibly over the last decade. These range from mosques, village leaders, govt officials, police, other local comps etc (all grabbing) About 4 years ago I employed a person who spends her time anticipating conflict and dealing with it at grass roots before it becomes a problem This was a very good move as we have very rarely been caught out - again this builds on the trust.
*Building the First Team to come

EJ - The concept of First Team grew as we needed trainees (2nd Team)
It stuck so we built our pay structure around it.
The FT is open to anyone. It requires a lot of effort, skill & study including spells in all parts of the business (hr/fin/log/plan/eng/des even security). Once a person is FT then managerial roles are available thereby we create a definite progression structure for all
Some are happy to remain as FT as they earn 20% more than a standard op and we use them wherever there is a need (floating trained ops) no negotiation required, no delays, no conflict no loss of output
The best thing is those who take management positions(1 first FT is currently a Director and 2 relocated to Malaysia) already have a deep understanding of the business and carry with them shop floor trust and inter dept cooperation. what this means is if we make a mistake (and we do) rather than have a demo we have a talk and we are trusted to sort it out

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
11:57am Feb 23, 2012
As an academic you yourself are in one of society's more prominent thought-police roles. And yet as someone who would dissent from your rather inchoate and conventionally elitist view of labour relations and who would engage you in debate I'm the one advocating censorship? Yeah right. Don't quite see it myself.


SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
12:54pm Feb 23, 2012
Exactly DD. Dez has outlined previously how it's not workers who make him reluctant to set up shop here. It's the crushing bureaucracy. Indonesia's labour costs are extremely low in comparison with other countries. Enakajah here lays into pampered workers and doesn't mention this at all, whereas in another story from today he sides with the littleman warung owners against the forces of bureaucracy. Doesn't seem consistent to me. Indonesia's labour laws do need revising, however you can be sure that they will be altered to suit Indonesia's powerful employers' association if people don't organize. So where's Indonesia's empoyEEs' association? Well, they're finally getting out the starting blocks after decades of having their skulls cracked by fascist goon squads. I'm not advocating violence at all. In the history of labour struggles it's pretty clear which is the violent side. Boohoo there were some traffic jams. How often do politicians' motorcades or FPI rallies cause traffic jams?


trueblue
1:20pm Feb 23, 2012
SirAnthony
oops, I hope the "fascist goon squads" don't lead into Godwin territory and spoil the cerebral circus!


enakajah
1:49pm Feb 23, 2012
SAKB, if you had actually read properly what I said I was actually stating that the labour laws create a situation where employers in a lot of cases end up bending the rules to the detriment of the employees. The labour laws create a situation where mass production employers are forced to use draconian methods. I am not laying into the workers at all merely stating what you obviously know is true. the labour laws create a great deal more trouble than they resolve. Read what I said again.... And the employees can of course withdraw their labour or betters still organize and work with management understanding that it is very difficult for the companies to work inside the laws.
Indonesian labour costs extremely low??? Nonsense. If this was so why would so many people have left to set up in Vietnam, Phils and other countries? At no stage have I advocated against employees. So I am constant with the street stalls and here. You are just getting angry and personal again.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
1:53pm Feb 23, 2012
Have no fear TB, Ay-dolf is still some distance away from make an ill-advised entrance into the proceedings.

Yohanes-Sulaiman
1:57pm Feb 23, 2012
@SirAnthony: It is funny that now you are crying about censorship, while you are the first one trying to undermine my argument by saying that I am an "ideological victim of the Mohawk Valley formula."

Talk about leftist's victim mentality.

Anyway, I am bowing out from this debate. This is not a productive use of my time, and I am tired of this "I am rubber and you are glue" debate.

Have fun.


enakajah
2:01pm Feb 23, 2012
DD, as I am sure you are aware, you were one of those I was referring to. You can be successful but it is very hard work and all about trust.
Not everyone has that luxury and perhaps fewer care. Hence the problems. But the labour laws are so restrictive that what is happening has been on the cards for a long time. Regardless of SAKB's diatribes the fact remains that labour laws cause more problems than they resolve. However through the 90's there were virtually no rights for workers at all... so the pendulum has perhaps swung too far the other way.

enakajah
2:05pm Feb 23, 2012
Yes Yohannes, me too... I resisted entering it for a while but I can see this is like rugby and football... nobody is going to change their stance and it is geting personal as well so I am out also.

Better things to do.


SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
2:18pm Feb 23, 2012
"Indonesian labour costs extremely low??? Nonsense. If this was so why would so many people have left to set up in Vietnam, Phils and other countries?"

...because the endless rent-seeking officials and thugs here and because of the greater legal certainties there, but we've just been though all this and so has Dez. Indonesia has some of the lowest labour costs in the region. Fact.


SirAnthonyKnown-Bender
2:20pm Feb 23, 2012
"Anyway, I am bowing out from this debate. This is not a productive use of my time."

I see, very hoity. Well you get to ya Reagonomics classes then. Good luck Sir.

DrDez

2:37pm Feb 23, 2012


EJ
The pendulum has swung too far of that I am certain. when it swings back it will no doubt do more damage - as is the way of most things
On this debate, its fair to say that all parties are actually right, certainly from where they stand
My own fear is that the workforce are just being used as pawns - and to what ends??
But as NRN suggests I am perhaps prone to looking on the darker side and so I am sure like all reasonable men they will sit around and find a solution.. I predict new cars for the union leaders as the short term solution

 
nonredneck
10:39pm Feb 23, 2012
SAKB: Don't think yohanes includes himself in this group of people who explicitly/implicitly want to run others' lives.

As for Reagan: I know u're anti-reagan, anti-hitler, anti-stalin, anti-imperial, anti-liberal, anti-religion, anti-fascist, anti-monarchy, anti-authoritarian, anti-socialist,etc basically anti-everything. So what aren't you anti- of ?

Ur question: "So where's Indonesia's empoyEEs' association?"
Here: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/news/indonesian-activists-worry-about-unions-growth/499895

We both know how this "union" or "association" will be abused if the "protest path" is encouraged from within. There is no way to prevent infiltration, all organizations are prone to this.

However through the path of upgrading skills, improving efficiency, learning new techniques or new 'how to'-[create/fix sth], etc all the programs which enable its members to enhance themselves for future use, what is there to manipulate ??


nonredneck
10:41pm Feb 23, 2012
SAKB: You said "I'm not advocating violence at all. In the history of labour struggles it's pretty clear which is the violent side."

Of course, none of us are advocating violence, BUT, can you prevent violence?

When the emotion is high on the street, the air is dusty-hot-stuffy-sweaty, the shout on loud speakers not heard, provocator/infiltrator started with little talk here &there,
one thing leads to another, before you know it,
the tiniest spark turned into wildfire, we're no gandhi.

And remember this, any side resorting to violence is a guaranteed to get violent replies, all sides will bleed.

nonredneck
10:42pm Feb 23, 2012
DD: While I agree with you absolutely on the concept of trust & core-team, this is not applicable in labor-union vs. bussines-assoc.

I put "vs." because this is the current view, there is no trust (on national level) between employees & employers.

This level of family-like trust at your company, is highly unlikely to happen at national level.

And your suspicion that the workforce are just being used as pawns, I have no doubt.

But as I previously mentioned to SAKB, there is no way to manipulate the workers IF the path to progress is focused on advancing the worker's skill, capability, & their own efficiency through training & learning programs funded by labor-union vs. bussines-assoc. Win-win-screwgovt situation.