State’s Identity Card Concession Doesn’t Fix Problem With Its Stance on Religion

So, why do we need the "religion" column in our ID cards?

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State’s Identity Card Concession Doesn’t Fix Problem With Its Stance on Religion
Yohanes Sulaiman & Phillip Turnbull | February 23, 2012

'The purpose of the state is to protect the well-being of its citizens, not tell them what to believe'

In a move likely to stir up controversy and opposition from hard-line militant religious groups, the Home Affairs Ministry is floating the idea that those Indonesians who do not subscribe to one of the six officially recognized religions but belong to another may leave the religion column on their identity cards blank.

For many years, the religion column has caused much controversy. Ever since 1965, when President Sukarno decreed that there were only six recognized religions in Indonesia, minority religions have been under pressure to conform.

Clearly some in the government have recognized the problem with this situation and want to do something about it. This is to be welcomed. However, one must ask whether they have clearly identified the problem.

On one hand, the move is meant to further develop and implement the founding principles of Pancasila, which guarantees religious freedom and tolerance, and to include those minority religions in the community that do not fall under the broad ambit of the six recognized monotheistic world religions acknowledged as legal here.

This is obviously a good development for adherents of minority religions, who have seen more than their fair share of repression. As late as 1978, the office regulating “minority religions” was transferred from the Ministry of Religious Affairs to the Ministry of Education, a move that insinuated that these were less than true religions.

As a result, and because the New Order regime had decided that Confucianism would no longer be recognized as a religion, the minorities were forced to pick one of the remaining five “real” religions.

Now, even if minorities are allowed to leave the religion column on their ID cards blank, they still might become the victims of discrimination, not to mention the fact that beliefs still won’t be considered a religion by the state.

Basically, adherents of minority religions would be lumped together with those whose belief in God is suspended and those for whom God simply does not exist. And these people were all discriminated against and treated with contempt due to the legacy of the bloody struggle against communism.

A central tenet of the communist creed is atheism. During the tumultuous years of the Sukarno era, the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI) was popular among poor villagers thanks to its poverty alleviation programs, ranging from the redistribution of land (often forcibly) to low-interest loans for struggling farmers.

In order to curb the PKI’s growth, religious parties and organizations and even the secular nationalist parties that were also threatened by the rise of the PKI used the issue of “communists as atheists” as a stick to beat the party.

When the communists were found to be involved in the failed 1965 September 30 coup against Sukarno (often known by its official acronym, G30S/PKI), the PKI’s atheism was used to convince people that only atheists were capable of torturing and murdering six Army generals. While the accusation of torture was later refuted, the damage was done. People were led to believe that all atheists were capable of heinous acts, and the bloody suppression of communists was justified.

The victors subsequently associated communism with everything unpatriotic and whatever might pose a danger to the country. Belief in God hence became tantamount to being a patriot. Besides, to forge a national unifying identity, the young country needed a symbol of oppression to fight and guard against and “communism” — a very broad term applied to anyone who opposed Suharto’s New Order regime from the latter half of the 1960s — was at hand as a convenient bogeyman. And that included atheism.

Minority religions were caught in the vise. Most of their adherents were poor villagers, people who were naturally inclined to support the PKI due to its poverty alleviation programs. As a result, they were accused of being closet atheists and suffered greatly in the aftermath of the failed coup.

Now times have changed. Communism is no longer a credible threat to Indonesia. But for their own purposes, Indonesian politicians and religious leaders like to keep up the pretense that the “communist” bogeyman is hiding behind a tree and the country will disintegrate if they acknowledge there are people here who do not believe in God — and a state-sanctioned one at that.

What this state mentality has created is confusion and contradiction. While people have a right to express their religious beliefs publicly and privately, by so forcefully regulating religion in the public sphere, Indonesia got into something that it should have stayed out of. Like continental Europe in the 16th century after years of social and religious upheaval, Indonesia attempted its own form of cuius regio, eius religio , whereby European rulers attempted to create national harmony and conformity by regulating that citizens of a particular region adopt the religion of the ruler or move on.

In Indonesia’s case, this was applied to the whole country. All citizens were required to adopt one of the six official religions. But those who don’t adhere to one of the six state faiths are still here. They exist and thus they cannot be ignored. Nor can they be forced to exist in a way that conforms to an arbitrary system of identification that clearly needs to be reconsidered in the light of history and changing attitudes in society. Even if someone should claim that all people must have a religion and those who do not or adhere to minority religions are in error, it has to be pointed out that even those who err have rights.

Every person in Indonesia is an unsolved puzzle trying to make some sense of life. Some will say God is the key to understanding that puzzle and many in Indonesia would agree with that.

However, the fact remains that the state has no right to make distinctions between believers of different traditions, favoring one group above another, nor of making distinctions between believers and nonbelievers. To do so is an infringement on the fundamental rights of human beings.

The purpose of the state is to protect and foster the well-being of its citizens, not tell them what to think and believe. That is the right of the individual. The state’s role is to create peace so individuals may seek answers according to the dictates of their consciences.

This proposal of the Home Affairs Ministry is to be welcomed as a first step in a wider discussion. Let’s just hope there is no shouting.
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trueblue

5:28pm Feb 23, 2012

@Sulaiman/Turnbull

To avoid any misunderstanding allow me to nail my colours to the mast! In principle and practice I advocate a secular Constitution e.g., France. The concept of "one nation under God", just simply does not work for me. And it is proven that it doesn't work anywhere! It is impossible to forcibly via a constitution frog march an individual to select from a six pack of faith.

That's as curious as Freemasons who have to believe in the Great Architect, a catch all requisition whereby belief in Superman, The Tooth Fairy or Mickey Mouse as the nominated "Great Architect" suffices.

Although I make no apologies for being a person of religious faith, I am emphatic that faith and belief cannot be legislated.

padt

6:42pm Feb 23, 2012

trueblue - I think the last four paragraphs of this article - diplomatically couched in measured language - would indicate that the authors of the article agree with your view that it is not the role of the State to legislate for faith and belief. The second last paragraph in particular says this in so many words. That's how I read it.

The role of the State is to provide a peaceful climate for those who wish to pursue their beliefs - in private and in public - with freedom from oppression from any source and without State interference - so long as the secular law of the land is upheld. The role of the State is also to provide a peaceful climate for those of no religious beliefs to live according to the dicates of the conscience in freedom and security, with all the benefits that living in society affords to all citizns.

The last paragraph is a call for a wider discussion of this matter than is currently taking place.

The wives of Freemasons frighten the hell out of me, by the way.

Yohanes-Sulaiman

7:15pm Feb 23, 2012

Of course, the best government is the government that interfere least to individual's personal choice, notably in religion. The problem, however, even today we still have all these unfinished debate on the role of state and it relations with religion. In Indonesia, the ministry of religion is created as a compromise with the political Muslims as far back as in 1945, especially after Bung Hatta (God bless his soul) decided to get rid of the requirement to do shariah from the Pancasila in order to maintain the unity of the nation.

In France, to ensure equality, the country adopt secular constitution. In Indonesia, however, the current status quo is seen as a compromise, and thus you keep hearing so many Islamists complaining that they got the short end of the stick and wanting to put the shariah back in the constitution.

Thus, you are right that faith and belief cannot be legislated, but at the same time, this is the card that we are being dealt with at this moment.

nonredneck

8:32pm Feb 23, 2012

padt: "The wives of Freemasons frighten the hell out of me, by the way." Any difference from any other wives ?

principe

7:27am Feb 24, 2012

Rules, regulations and laws are based on a communities' norms and values. These norms and values often derive from a communities' history and tradition. Often they are thought of as "for the sake of the community" they derive from. For the common good so to speak. And also very often they derive from the deities and rituals they (used to) worship and practice. Legislation therefore can't escape those roots. Also an Atheist will have an opinion about right and wrong on. He or she may wonder where that feeling or opinion originates from. Surely it is not genetically motivated, so that leaves us with how, by whom and why we were taught these values. So, are sense of righteousness has its origins somewhere. If we dig long enough we may arrive to those origin's origin where we may end up with some belief in the evolution of Godly beliefs giving structure to what we know and accept as our sense of right and wrong, our sense of justice. can religion really be disconnected from that ?

wasnotis

7:49am Feb 24, 2012

The absurdity with the idea of choosing one of "six officially recognized monotheistic religions" is that three of the given choices are not actually monotheistic. A little knowledge about religious history would be useful in this debate.

imaji

9:10am Feb 24, 2012

People's personal belief should not be the concerns of others, let alone the state. Erase religion from ID cards!

DrDez

9:26am Feb 24, 2012

nrn... oh yes there is a difference

trueblue

9:45am Feb 24, 2012

@wasnotis

Your point is correct. Theologically the Abrahamic religions would be monotheistic. On that basis alone another would need to be added.

Must Try Harder: Yudhoyono’s School Report Shows Much Room to Improve

The idea for this article came during the lunch meeting with Ben Otto. We were discussing about my articles and where it should go, when he mentioned the idea that the Jakarta Globe was going to do some articles on "2011." I volunteered to write an article on evaluating SBY's performance, followed a week after, by an article on the most important events of 2011.

Not surprisingly, this became the longest article I had written for the Globe at approximately 1400s words.
While was really tempting to say that SBY's presidency was a failure, I had to be objective in this case. I had to evaluate the presidency carefully, paying attention to which ones he could not have done anything had he wanted to and which ones were the missing opportunity.

Thus, I could not put in the hijacking of Indonesian freighter by the Somalian pirates (though it was very tempting to write all the government's missteps that exacerbated the situation) and many more blunders. Still, it was an interesting mind exercise.

Of all the comments, I found Christianto Wibisono's to be the most amusing. He said that no wonder I was not a popular teacher - I was harsher than Pak Fitch in grading Mr. SBY.

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Must Try Harder: Yudhoyono’s School Report Shows Much Room to Improve
Yohanes Sulaiman | December 20, 2011

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono speaking at the Democratic Party's 10th anniversary event on Thursday.
(Rumgapres Photo)

With a few days to go before the new year, this is a good time to evaluate the performance of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in 2011.

Politics: 2011 was another year of wasted opportunities. With the opposition in disarray due to multiple scandals and misconduct and lawmakers’ popularity at a new low, Yudhoyono could have shown himself to be the only adult in town by being an effective administrator pushing for economic, law enforcement and political reforms.

Instead he was distracted by multiple scandals involving his own political party.

While Yudhoyono remains the most popular politician in Indonesia, Golkar has been working hard behind the scenes to ensure that it wins regional elections and ultimately the national election in 2014. At this juncture, Aburizal Bakrie may succeed in his bid to become the next president thanks to his ability to maintain discipline within Golkar. Grade: C.

Stability: Yudhoyono has a mixed record in maintaining the stability of the country. On one hand, he did a great job in tackling and managing the impact of bombings, preventing them from creating a new panic. In the case of Maluku, so far he has managed to prevent the situation there from degenerating further into an ethno-religious conflict.

Papua remains in turmoil, with the government unable to do much to curb corruption and to address local grievances. The government’s heavy-handed approach in dealing with discontent will hurt in the long run. Grade: B.

Economy: The economy has grown nicely this year, with every macroeconomic indicator in the black.

There are also signs of trouble, however, building on the horizon. Most of the nation’s growth so far has been driven by domestic consumption and international demand for our coal, gas and various other natural resources, which may decline drastically should China enter a period of recession.

There are concerns that all the economic gains do not trickle down to the middle and lower class, creating more inequality.

At the same time, some respected economists, such as Christianto Wibisono, have argued that growth of the Indonesian economy was solely driven by the private sector, with the government doing nothing but dragging the growth rate down due to massive red tape, conflicting regulations between the local and national levels and corruption.

Moreover, some short-sighted policies did nothing but sour the climate for investment further. For instance, Communication Minister Tifatul Sembiring’s threat to shut down Research In Motion’s operation in Indonesia and Churchill Mining’s troubles in East Kalimantan will spook foreign investors, wary that their investment will be politicized or simply taken away due to regulatory loopholes and corruption.

On the plus side, Dahlan Iskan’s appointment as the minister for state enterprises seems to be a great choice so far. Grade: B-.

Governance: Yudhoyono has a dysfunctional cabinet, with ministers unwilling to be the bearer of bad news to the president and unwilling to coordinate with each other. He succumbed to his political calculations and instead of streamlining the decision-making process, he created several positions of deputy ministers that further bloated the bureaucracy. Grade: D.

Corruption: Despite his campaign promises, corruption remains rampant within the bureaucracy and has had direct implications on people’s well-being and our national reputation, such as the collapsing bridges and graft surrounding the housing for athletes at the Southeast Asian Games.

Unchecked attempts to emasculate the to Corruption Eradication Commission (KPK), the Gayus show, Nazaruddin and Nunun’s adventures abroad (that only ended after public outcry), then Justice and Human Rights Minister Patrialis Akbar’s decision to reduce the sentences of graft convicts, and the failure of many regional courts to punish those who commit graft are just the very top of this wreck that did nothing but undermine the public’s trust in the seriousness of the government to clean house. Grade: F.

Human Rights and Religious Freedom: While the government always stresses its commitments in defending human rights and religious freedoms, events prove otherwise.

Religious extremists are still running around with implicit clearance from the law enforcement apparatus. The failure of the government to defend the Ahmadiyah, let alone to persecute their attackers, did nothing but to sully Indonesia’s name abroad. Worse, the Bogor mayor’s decision to close down the GKI Yasmin Church, citing dubious excuses and in spite of the Supreme Court’s decision to uphold the church’s position, made further mockery of the rule of law. Grade: D.

Military Reform: The military remains committed to transforming itself into a modern, professional organization.

Though the progress is slow, and misconduct remains rampant, the improvement has been steady. The government has also helped the reform with its commitment to slowly increasing the budget for arms procurement and in improving the military’s ties with the United States. Grade: A.

Law Enforcement: Corruption remains rampant within Indonesian law enforcement, extending from the police corps and the office of prosecutor to the judiciary system.

The Constitutional Court is the only relatively bright spot in an otherwise rotten system. While there are efforts to clean things up, most prosecutions are politically influenced or driven by popular outrage. Grade: D.

Foreign Policy: While there were many foreign policy accomplishments this year with Indonesia as the chair of Asean, the country also had its share of missteps. For instance, even though the Asean Summit was a huge international event, there was little coverage in Indonesia, with the government unable to rouse public enthusiasm for the event. In addition, various governmental missteps, such as its inability to protect its workers from unjustified capital punishment abroad put a blemish on the government’s record.

On the plus side, the government handled the border crisis decently, keeping the situation from spiraling out of control. Grade: C.

Final Evaluation: 2011 was a year of several missed opportunities, with Yudhoyono unable to develop a coherent long-term strategy for Indonesia. The promised reforms were nonexistent, due to the lack of decisiveness. One hopes that the government will show a little backbone next year, especially in tackling the issue of corruption. Overall Grade: C-.

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carolinetanjaya

1:42pm Dec 20, 2011

Although I cannot say I disagree with the rest of the evaluation, some of the examples mentioned under the corruption heading are not thoroughly accurate or balanced. Some of the collapsing bridges were procured and built before SBY assume the presidency,like the Kukar bridge and the new Justice and the Human Rights minister ordered for a stricter procedure to reduce the sentence of the graft convicts. Furthermore we have to appreciate the fact that Nazaruddin and Nunun were indeed caught and brought back to Indonesia for trial. However, I agree that there is still much room for improvement.

Yohanes-Sulaiman

9:03pm Dec 20, 2011

@Carolinetanjaya: Thank you for your kind comments. While you are right that some of the collapsing bridges were built before his era, had he been through in cracking down on corruption, the local government would have been unable to skim the money used for the regular maintenance. We could even see a parade of the responsible parties on trial. Yet, a few weeks after the collapsed bridge, seems everything is back to the doldrums, that nobody got dragged kicking and screaming to the court to face the music.

On the new Justice and Human Rights minister: I am grading him on his yearly performance, and like it or not, Patrialis could not do anything without his acquiesence, so Patrialis Akbar's blunders still stop at his desk.

On Naz and Nunun: Yeah, they got arrested after popular outrage and much embarassment. That's not a plus in my estimation.

DrDez

7:05am Dec 21, 2011

Yohanes
More or less agree, I would have ranked a score lower on some issues re human rights & religious freedoms since he has been ineffective & has avoided the issues whenever religion has been a central theme.. Minor disagreement
However where I do disagree significantly is related to Military Reform. The bill (2008?) requiring the TNI to withdraw from SOE's has been all but ignored and in many ways that ties in with your corruption score - I would score MF no better than a C.

Caroline - Many of the maintenance contracts are controlled by a Kalla owned Group - they are paid extortionate amounts to and I quote 'check a few nuts and bolts'

Yohanes-Sulaiman

6:02pm Dec 21, 2011

@Dr. Dez: On religious freedom and human rights, I don't think he is THAT failed -- he had a bad score thanks to all these messes from GKI Yamin, Ahmadiyah, and now, that killings of the farmers in Lampung. Yet, we have to acknowledge that this is far from a police state, and he is guilty of being passive -- thus the grade D.

On military reform: we can agree to disagree here. Yeah, the military is still in a mess, but from my dealing with them on a constant basis, it seems to me that the military itself is geniunely interested in reforming itself -- especially among the rank and file. True that they are still defending their vested interests and have a very narrow understanding of what their roles supposed to be and how to deal with e.g. Papua, but as a whole, the institution is truly moving forward, which is far cry to the rest of the nation.

Still, I may be biased here.

RuleBritannia

6:32pm Dec 21, 2011

@Yohanes: Concur re. your grades. However, in the words of Edmund Burke, "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" so, the crime of passivity is perhaps one of the biggest crimes of all for a ruling president.

Yohanes-Sulaiman

6:47pm Dec 21, 2011

@RuleBrittannia: I agree, but well, I could not say he was passive so this was a year of failure. Though I think Bung Hatta would have put it succinctly by quoting Schiller, his favourite poet: "The century has given birth to a time of greatness, But the great moment finds man small."

RuleBritannia

7:11pm Dec 21, 2011

@Yohanes: Indeed . . And I'm sure those celebrating Christmas in a parking lot, together with many others, will be praying for John 4:23 'Cometh the hour, cometh the man.' as their New Year Wish!!

DrDez

9:26pm Dec 21, 2011

The real crime is that SBY had a whole nation behind him - he had not only the elite but a popular vote to make real change... Almost no politician in history has had such a luxury - JFK, Churchill, Ghandi in the modern era perhaps - but the simple truth is he has blown it.. No debate, no more analysis, no more what if's... His next few years will be spent preparing the legacy (his protection)... It is abject failure if viewed from a national perspective as simple as that

nonredneck

10:13pm Dec 21, 2011

I 2nd caroline & Yohanes views.This comes back to political game of balances. To catch the fish,sometimes u hv to let the mud settle down OR sometimes u hv to disturb the water. To us it's easy when we see it on the news "hey u're not doing anything SBY!" but not so when we'r in tht position ourself having to deal with our own internal party, military, the imams, foreign preassure, economic etc. This reminds me of Sukarno's fragile balance of nasakom and cia. In order to attract a sizable amount of investment for further economic progress,a relative stability is required. A political strugle or worse if military & extremist-open-war is involved. These could even worsen the fragile situation. There's no quick attack solution for hundreds yr old problems,but regardless of heritage/culture/military/protests/religious,all balance will never be achieved if there is no economic prosperity. Indo can be monarcy like brunei for all I care but economic prosperity must be priotiry fr all policies

Yohanes-Sulaiman

10:19pm Dec 21, 2011

Risking myself to be seen as starry-eyed idealist, I think we need a complete revamp of the election law. We should make it that a president can only reign for 1 term of 6 years. We will have the DPR election on the second and fourth years of the presidency -- providing feedback and rebukes to the ruling party. So, instead of having those clowns to sit pretty for 5 years in the parliament, they should be judged by population every two or four years.

Otherwise, I'm afraid that the democracy can no longer be salvaged thanks to these clowns up there.

DrDez

5:16am Dec 22, 2011

Yohanes
Many (of us) have lobbied for voting reforms for years via working groups, business groups, advisory groups etc etc and what we witness time after time is that as soon as their power/prosperity is challenged the doors are firmly shut. You may recall my post about the spatial planning fiasco a few weeks ago - A typical example of exposing a deep flaw in the administration and then getting the door slammed.
NRN - I am sorry but economic prosperity at any costs is not a wise path. It is already twisted and used as the excuse for personal gain as it is and is incredibly narrow in its benefits. We are doing this/that for the nation translates to we are making a killing (literally sometimes) and don't care about the consequences

nonredneck

2:35pm Dec 22, 2011

DD: Just curious, in your business dealings, do you make money first and fix the system later, OR fix the system to perfection first then make money later? Assuming you are in the situation of the poor majority.

DrDez

4:07pm Dec 22, 2011

NRN
Born from a philosophy to make things right first time, we employ the best people we can, pay very well & use a Toyota based system. We made no money for years & then about 35 years ago we took our first major export step Toshiba. A 1000% increase in turnover in 2 yrs resulted. 40 staff to 500. We still stuck by our philosophy & it stood up well.
20 years ago we had accredn with FAA & the biz exploded again. Current CEO is my oldest grandson who we have groomed since he was 15 & hopefully he will do the family proud.
I would say we plan well and always try get the model right; knowing that it will make money
Starting pay is 1.8x min wage + FF medical cover, free canteen and travel allowance. After 1 year we offer a lot of other stuff including profit share (2010 was Rp25jt/per person)
In return we have almost zero staff turnover and almost zero defects, we run at an ebita over 30% and pay our taxes. Our biggest issues are usually from the local mosques and village chiefs

blightyboy

4:59pm Dec 22, 2011

DrDez - I can only applaud.

blightyboy

5:03pm Dec 22, 2011

nonredneck - The name you have chosen really is quite offensive.

nonredneck

5:56pm Dec 22, 2011

blightyboy: I've explained my stance on my username before on different topic. If you're not an extremist, not a sawn-off-shotgun slinger, not a fighting-pitbull breeder, not a slave owner, and not a forest burner then you are also my friend... also a non-redneck.

nonredneck

5:58pm Dec 22, 2011

DD: Your way sounds absolutely the way a business should be run, and I agree 100%. But in larger application, can this model be applied in larger scale of a nation? If it is applied though, won't this turn back to autocratic leadership style, and there will be no voting/protests to influence the direction of the company. Singapore is an example of how a state is run like a profitable enterprise, and the result is amazing! But this would also means lack of public involvement, and single party dominance over all policies. And SG policies as we know it tends to favor businesses, and economic prosperity. Only recently after the election, they change their style. So going back to economic first or system first, if for example Indo is to use your business philosophy then that would mean a strong dominant leader at the top to determine the direction of the ship, and among which social-strata can we find this kind of uncorrupted leader?

DrDez

6:27pm Dec 22, 2011

NRN its a business model not a model nation. We do things by committee and only rarely does Mathew or previously myself make a singular decision. We run works councils, Health & Safety Councils, NPI Councils so that everyone has a say – They all own what they do and they are proud of the company and we are proud of them. We all wear the same gear, eat in the same canteen, start and finish at the same time, our wage structure is public – we operate a grades system. Nothing is underhand and if we have an issue we always deal with it publicly .
If I had to run a nation – I would devise a different model – that model would start by splicing religion and state, it would also sell off all SOE’s and disband the military. It would open our doors to the world without prejudice… then see what we would become...At my age I have seen hope and despair in this nation - right now I have no confidence in our peoples ability to overturn the oppressor

padt

6:30pm Dec 22, 2011

And the issues from the local mosques and village chiefs are DrDez?

BilboBaggins

8:08pm Dec 22, 2011

DrDez
"right now I have no confidence in our peoples ability to overturn the oppressor "

It makes me sad that I feel that you are right on this point.

DrDez

8:15pm Dec 22, 2011

Padt : threats, stirring up trouble, asking for donations or bribes (not to cause trouble) & worse
Example: years ago we built 2 schools & still pay for uniforms, books & our onsite Nurse visits to check on the kids
The local mosque man came saying he could get the stuff cheaper & it would give local people employment. The Nurse noticed the kids had not got new uniforms so she asked the teacher who said they had not had anything this term. My wife confronted the cleric. I had given him via bank transfer Rp15jt down payment as requested about 8 weeks previously. He said he had not had the cash, so I involved the bank who proved it had been paid. The Police refused to press charges unless we paid a fee. We lost Rp15jt – we bought more books and uniforms and then stopped the annual gift to the mosque (Rp25jt) Can you believe he came to ask for it the first year! We refused resulting in vandalism and threats to staff direct from him
Aceh1 Remind me again why I should like Islam?

DrDez

8:16pm Dec 22, 2011

Bilbo
The problem is that the majority would in their shoes do exactly the same

Valkyrie

9:21pm Dec 22, 2011

DrDez...

I am able to understand how you feel about religion.
Just need to tell you that there are still some good apples in the basket.

SirAnthonyKnown-Bender

11:35pm Dec 22, 2011

Nice story from Dr Dez there and alas all too typical I fear. Rather than good apples, who would be good apples in any case, my own view is that religion, like the flag, is far more often something for bad apples to hide behind and mask their negativity behind a patina of respectability. And in related news I see that Iraq has lasted precisely one week after the Yanks left before reaching the verge of Islamic internecine civil war.

DrDez

6:40am Dec 23, 2011

Val
I have said this a million times. I have no issue with people being religious - UNTIL they start using their belief in god to hurt, kill, corrupt, oppress, control, outlaw blah blah(you get the picture)
Religion is a fine thing - it gives people hope and a support system.
What really pisses me off is when pious people have incredibly obvious double standards and use religion for personal gain.
What pisses me off even more is the ultra sensitivity that Islam is displaying right here right now
what pisses me off even more than that is the response of most religious people here 'well he cant be a Muslim the Koran forbids that' and on and on. ergo an Ostrich response
Sheesh when are we going to learn to live together? Why is Islam so frightened of criticism that the instant response is attack? When are the state going to stand up and protect the minority? Do recall that the minorities account for some 50 million people (approx 20% of 250m)its not like its a small number

DrDez

7:36am Dec 23, 2011

Sir
Yes I agree - and re Iraq it looks like an all out sunni/shia conflict is on the cards - They will of course blame the CIA or Zionists... But the Sunni have been slaughtering Shia in Iraq this year via the bus load (literally)
2012 will be a bad year I can feel it in my water

Yohanes-Sulaiman

12:14pm Dec 23, 2011

@all: What we observe here is the unholy incest between religion and politics. As long are religion is used as means to achieve political goals without paying much attention to rule of law, expect such idiocy to continue unhindered.

nonredneck

4:58pm Dec 23, 2011

DD: AHA...something clicks when you said "at my age"... Now I can see why we share many common agreement on issues, but the differece is in "hope". I'm guessing we as human measure our surroundings & future outlook based on our own lifespan. Say you live to 100 or more, it is most likely that you won't see much change at all,hence explain your outlook on the country. On the contrary I have a longer time to reach 100 so my outlook for the future is more hopeful therefore deemed more positive. But I'm surprised at so many younger audience reading JG having cynical views, I don't know if it's the sheep mentality, or they genuinely have cynical views at their young age, if they are genuine then I'll be worried because it's a vicious-cycle.

nonredneck

4:58pm Dec 23, 2011

On iraq, it has officially become a stage for proxy wars, secular propaganda must be strengthen. I don't care how, but the PR machines must work hard to spin that secular propaganda in the hearts and minds. Nationalistic fascism is better than religious extremism, north korea is easier to dismantle than extremist hydras

DrDez

5:20pm Dec 23, 2011

NRN
84 & married to my Indonesian wife (whom I met in Paris) over 50 years, we have lived in JK for nearly 44 years
I have seen a LOT of changes here, I see repeated & predictable patterns & right now we are in a cycle that will get significantly worse before it gets better. The TNI will figure large
Iraqi: the region will in 2012 see deaths beyond imagination. Civil war will continue in Syria & Yemen, sectarian violence will worsen in Iraq, Iran will maintain the support for Syria and The Shia in Iraq, Pakistan will continue killing itself until ISI takes over and no doubt will draw India into conflict. Behind the scenes Saudi will be pumping cash into Islamic extremism, the US will use the CIA as a counter measure, Russia and China will carry on their subversion. The MB will screw Egypt and probably in desperation take them to war with Israel, Turks meanwhile will continue to kill the kurds Marko would say its NWO time
I am not looking forward to '12. The grim reaper will be busy

nonredneck

4:36pm Dec 24, 2011

Hmmm many many dead bodies in mideast.... which is happier god or syaitan? > if their answer is 'g' then they're indicating that their 'g' is bloodthirsty. And if their answer is 's' then why use the 'g' name?