Anyhow, the fact that they published this article so close to the previous one was a major shock to me. I did not expect to have actually three articles published this week, including that Tempo article.
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Dickens Still Offers Lasting Lessons for Modern Indonesia
philjaco
8:24pm Feb 17,
2012
And of course those workers blocked that toll road. What else were they supposed to do? The guys at Apindo are making huge money right now, yet they still felt the need to go get that wage increase revoked. That's because there is no "national interest." If there were, Apindo wouldn't have done what they did. You talk about "social stability" and "restoring order." But the lives of the impoverished are already in chaos. That's poverty. What's one day without a toll road compared to that?
Thanks for your response.
Yohanes-Sulaiman
8:56pm Feb 17,
2012
trueblue
6:46am Feb 18,
2012
Sorry, but it's complete nonsense to make the erroneous claim "the Republicans aren't very different from the Democrats". Try that line on a Tea Party evangelical nutter, and your credibility would be splattered on the side walk. As to your nit picking at Sulaiman/Turnbull it is obvious that you have chosen to ignore the power of allegory and symbolism, which was brilliantly woven through this piece by two balanced wordsmiths. Your quest for labour reform is honourable, but mobs and anarchy are not the way forward.
nonredneck
2:00pm Feb 18,
2012
Either:
Sitting & singing lame ducks: "pasrah" "nasib lah" "little fish" "destiny" "leave it to god" "we can only pray" "nothing can be done" "doomsday" "no hope" "helpless" "hopeless" blablabla basically saying 'I'm not using my brain & no effort'
OR
Crybabies with tendencies to end up resorting to violence: block the street, shouting slogans on loud speakers, damage buildings/machineries/infrastructure, ravage the country, occupy/camp like homeless, chant slogans, throw stones, burn things, pull down gates, mob judgement(esp. brutal when they get their hands on the target), blablabla basically crying "I don't know what else to do. So I cry, just like babies not knowing how to say I'm hungry / I wet myself" wa wa wa.
Aren't we the well informed, multilingual, well traveled, well educated, well fed, well living, well thinking, well off bunch? What else can we do with all these privileges?
padt
2:51pm Feb 18,
2012
Dickens' books contributed to social change in England. His books were very influential and helped changed people's attitudes towards the poor and the law.
Where are such authors in Indonesia today?
Are there any who write and critique society and seek to bring about change?
Why are conditions in Indonesia - courts where kids are brought because they stole a pair of flip flops or were playing two up - or old ladies who steal a few bananas -the same today as they were 200 years ago in Dicken's England. Why did England change but Indonesia hasn't?
Why, if Dickens walked the streets of Jakarta today could he say, "These conditions are the same as London 200 years ago"?
mauriceg
3:33pm Feb 18,
2012
My feeling is that it is no accident that Indonesia is the way it is, not through historical cock-ups, but rather it suits the governing elites to have it that way. Through the murky fogs of inefficiency, corruption, incompetence and ignorance, they also have called upon their long-time allies of religious clerics. These latter, bought and paid for, both by the governments, and sometimes by other Muslim countries are there to enforce the teaching that this life's reward is in the next life. By this means facile, credulous, simple believers endure much.
The government has no interest in improving education as a smart electorate would sooner or later thwart their plans.
Is it possible that a present-day Dickens is writing about Indonesia? Is his/her work banned?
nonredneck
4:09pm Feb 18,
2012
padt
5:49pm Feb 18,
2012
There are other things that one can't mention without raising all hell and giving offence.
Let me just say today I played the final movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony to a university graduate and teacher - he had never heard it before - let alone who was Beethoven.
I then played him Allegri's Miserere - and likewise he had never heard it. He asked, "Why did the West produce this sort of music and culture and we didn't?"
I replied, "The foundations of our respective societies are different. We heard things and were formed by them, that most here are unaware of. Even if sometimes we didn't always live up to the ideals."
enakajah
6:57pm Feb 18,
2012
Gentlemen, whilst your piece has a nice ring to it and indeed there are a host is similarities between Indonesia today and Dickensian England, I would suggest that it is rather easier to find comparisons than to identify the causes and then the solutions.
Indonesia one must remember has had less than 70 years to develop a legal structure and framework. Prior to that there was 350 years of colonial rule in the most shocking form of divide and rule and near slavery where the legal system was set up to protect the rich and enslave the poor.
Indonesia was cut loose less than 70 years ago and has since had to develop a legal system from the old Dutch law and then the pressures the country has been under from the rest of the world to catch up and develop.
So what may appear Dickensian today has been achieved in a mere blink of the eye compared to the time it too Britain to Achieve the same Dickensian levels. It is therefore hardly surprising that we are where we are.
I would suggest that whilst much of what is said in the article is correct it is hardly surprising given the country's recent history. Imagine taking a country stripped bare for 350 years with little to show for it, then colonized by the Japanese for a few short years, then given back to the dutch and then eventually independent. Since the 60's the country has had to develop and Indonesian system in the mist of feeding the people, educating them defining laws that are appropriate to the many religious groups and on top of that compete for a place on the world stage.
No wonder we have the system we have. The country could not afford in time or money to develop the systems Europe has. But it will come. The results are obvious that currently the rich seal everything and the poor, well they just have to suck it up. Not so uncommon around the world actually.
However given time and the fact that there are people that recognize the situation, the country will get better.
padt
8:28pm Feb 18,
2012
enakajah, while time is certainly a factor - the question is - how much time is required to deal with the problems of vested corrupt practices in the law and in parliament - and how much time is required to create the political will to do something about it.
Clearly things were getting better but now things are getting worse because they are going backwards.
As well, how long does it take to develop any kind of notion of public service and responsibility amongst those who adminsiter the law and politicians?
Time passes quickly - and in the meantime - those involved and shaping the considtions and destiny of the nation are distracted from the task they should be doing and more intent on accumulating personal wealth and power.
And there is no one to say, "Enoughs enough!"
I have just read Oliver Cromwell's short spoeach to the english parliament - 6 years after they had choped the kings head off for ruining (they said) the country.
Six years later the country was worse off.
So Cromwell shouted at the parliament: "It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt for all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; you are a factious crew, and enemies to all good, government, you are a pack of mercenary wretches...Is there a single virtue remaining among you? Is there one vice you do not possess? You have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartred your conscience for gold? Is there a man amongst you who has the least care for the good of the country? You sordid prostitutes, you have defiled this sacred place (parliament)....and turned it into a den of thieves by your immoral principles and wicked practices. You have grown intolerably odious to the entire nation; you who were deputed by the people to address the country's problems are now the problem.....In the name of God, get out of here!"
Who's got the guts to say it to that scum today?
enakajah
9:23pm Feb 19,
2012
Generation after generation have gone into developing the European systems and those of the major western governments. Indonesia has had less than a century to develop it's own system and to keep up with the pressure put on it by the rest of the world.
Who would get up as Cromwell Did. Gus Dur did for a start and look what happened to him.
Who will get rid of the rot as it stands today? Nobody I suspect but then again the voting public eventually will waken and when this country has had the luxury of centuries or at least several generations to develop it's systems I am quite sure it will be as solid as many others.
Rapid change breeds opportunity and opportunity breeds corruption.
It will take a great deal of time for the country to develop it's own system. In the mean time the reigning elite will continue to subvert and corrupt. UK was just the same until the early 1900's. The industrial revolution bred corruption in Britain to it's highest levels and this is what Dickens wrote about. But it was there before for very very long time.
Whilst we tend to think in the immediate countries must look towards thinking in generations. It will take many to resolve this country's problems and they must be allowed to do it their own way. It is Indonesia for indonesians and the government they develop must be primarily for themselves and then face the world. In many way they have done an excellent job. It is only in the last 10 or so years that it has got totally out of hand and eventually it will change. However it must come from inside. Guided by internationally accepted principles but uniquely Indonesian. It takes Generations not years.
padt
9:42pm Feb 19,
2012
enakajah
3:56am Feb 20,
2012
To change the way people think took Islam several hundred years. Changing from Hindu/Buddhist/Animist to the largest Islamic nation on earth. To change from 350 years of colonial rule to a democracy that will accommodate both Islam and secular government means changing the way people think over generations.
Looking at Indonesian history, feudalism is deeply rooted in the tradition and culture. This cannot be changed over night if it needs to be at all in the Indonesian context.
This you will find is the root of our friend JPB's arguments. Why does Indonesia have to conform to western ideas why can it not develop it's own.
Right or wrong the fact is change of this nature does not happen quickly. 70 years of independence is a mere tick of the clock compared to other countries.
Yohanes-Sulaiman
7:07am Feb 20,
2012
@enakajah: you are right that it will take generations to change. At the same time, however, there's kind of pro-authoritarianism tendency going on as these politicians do their best to undermine democracy by acting stupidly.
I recalled back in the 1950s, US Ambassador Cummings asked Ruslan Abdoelgani whether Indonesian democracy would last, and the latter said that decades of Indonesian democracy+political movement could not be overturned. Of course, now we knew that within a few years, Sukarno launched his Guided Democracy followed by Suharto's New Order. Those two periods created a very traumatized society, making them politically averse and infantile.
So, while authoritarianism would improve everything, especially by getting rid of those clowns in the parliament, the problem is that authoritarianism would wipe out the generational change you mentioned and put us back to start.
So pessimistic so early in the morning. Need to switch tea.
enakajah
8:16am Feb 21,
2012
Lee Kwan Yew also said it would take decades for Indonesia to develop a democracy that works after the fall of Soeharto and it looks like he is right.
But in the end, good, bad or indifferent, this must be resolved by Indonesians in a manner for Indonesians and despite the teething pains we are going through just now, eventually given time, a great deal of time, it will be resolved the Indonesian way.
In the mean time of course everyone suffers.... time for Indonesians to demand a better electoral method or start a party that provides representatives from each constituency that people know and recognize.
Yohannes, there is no need to be pessimistic, all change takes time, changing from one tea to another is I agree traumatic especially in the morning...... :)
Have a little more faith in the people of Indonesia, eventually once the current era of nonsense is over and done with an Indonesian democracy or system will prevail.
Just don't hold your breath. It will take time, a very long time. However please show me a country where it didn't. Instant good government.... We all wish....its just not the nature of the beast.
Yohanes-Sulaiman
8:42am Feb 21,
2012
The media needs to be responsible, however, otherwise the sensationalism style journalism could throw cold water.
padt
9:41am Feb 21,
2012
The issue of time - how long will it take - is important.
For me - it gets dfown to the simple reality that the government is distracted from its real opurpose. Its real purpose is to govern the country and make it a better place in all ways for the population. Instead the government is concerned with self enrichment and maintaining power (to enrich themselves) at all cost.
The average politicial and official here are not average - they are sub average - and fools into the bargain.
The worry is - where are the people of integrity to replace them?
And integrity is lacking in Indonesian social thought because of the way people think. Here it is a feudal society based on 'respect' right or wrong which makes as much sense as saying, "My Mother, drunk or sober'. If the old girl is sloshed, tell her to sober up.
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